APCO Pool Specialities, Inc.

"line-height:
115%,"serif"">When a pool owner calls our company
to perform Leak Detection, it is because they cannot find the leaks
themselves. In our opinion, this
customer is obviously not experienced in, or qualified to perform leak
detection/repair let alone analyze the failure mode that caused the additional
leak over a year after we were there. The
customer's opinion that we put the hole in the liner at the light faceplate is
solely based upon the fact that he did not see a hole in his liner before he
called us. He did not see the two other
holes in the deep end or the crack in the step but he does not have an issue
with them
Ultimately the customer wants us to be
responsible for a pool that had an issue when he bought the house. It was his failure to get the proper
inspections to make him aware of the problem or potential problems before he
bought the house. After we performed our
services and he was finally told of the situation, he still did not follow any
of our recommendations. It is not our
fault as he clearly admitted being told the repair was temporary and yet he
ignored our advice. It is common sense
that if a repair is temporary and a permanent fix is not done then it will get
worse. We even offered to put half of
the cost of the leak detection towards the new liner (permanent repair). This is a very common offer we do when leak
detection turns into the need for a new liner
Throughout
the years we have invested over $20,in leak detection equipment. It is this equipment that allows us to find a
pin hole in an inground pool and then be certain that there are no more leaks
elsewhere. This is why we kept looking
for additional leaks after we found and repaired two pin holes in the liner in
the deep end, and a crack in the step.
We knew there was still another leak somewhere else. It was eventually the one found behind the
light faceplate. After the temporary
repair to the light face plate the customer's pool was confirmed to have no
leaks when we left. This is done with a
device that measures water loss 1/10,of an inch at a time. It will actually measure and graph the
evaporation of pool water in real time
All
of the repairs have photos to document what was done and the customer was given
the opportunity to stop in our office to review any of the photos we have. He refused to stop in and discuss the
situation. Had he come in he would have
seen that all of the photos are time stamped and in sequential order proving we
have not omitted or changed any of the photos.
We also could have discussed any repair options he wanted to try
himself
Below
is an issue by issue reply to each of the customer's concerns. Although it is lengthy, we at APCO feel it is
important to protect our reputation and as such we must address all of his
statements. We welcome any comments and
would be glad to talk to any potential clients about the specifics involved
here
Customer's
statement:
I had a leak detection test and
patch work done in July of Two weeks after they did the job I was still
losing water and told Theresa at Apco about it right awayI chalked it up to
evaporationWhen the techs did the job, the lead guy said the putty he put
around the plastic face rim was a temporary fix, and I should probably get a
new liner soon
APCO response:
The
customer did call us on July 15th for leak detection on his
pool. We scheduled a service call to
locate and repair (if possible) the leak(s) in his pool. We sent two technicians out to the customer's
house and over a period of hours we found two small holes in the liner in the
deep end of the pool, a crack in the acrylic step, and a leak behind the light
faceplate. The two holes in the liner
were patched. The crack in the step was
repaired with underwater epoxy. The leak
behind the light face was not permanently repairable so we used non-hardening
putty. The leak behind the light face
plate was due to an improper interface between the liner and the faceplate
This most likely occurred when the liner was installed for the previous homeowner
(and not by APCO). The putty around the
light faceplate was only a temporary repair as the actual leak was behind the
faceplate and we could not access the hole.
This was all explained to the customer along with the need for a new
liner. The customer did call about two
weeks later with a suspected leak He
said it was ¼" per day. After discussing
it with Theresa it was determined to only be evaporation. The customer never called us back until this
year. The customer was also given a
quote for a new liner the following day.
Customer's
statement:
He also said the liner wasn't
installed rightMaybe so, but that didn't account for another hole that wasn't
there before they started the job
APCO response:
The
hole the customer is referring to was not there when we started, or when we
finished. The customer did not see that
hole until over a year laterThis was after not following our advice to get a
new liner ASAP. He not only did not get
a new liner, but he let the pool drain dangerously low over the winter. This is what caused the liner to stretch and shrink
and cause the putty to come loose and the small hole to tear more creating the
larger hole that the customer sees now.
He only called one time, several weeks after the repairs were performed
to report a possible leak of ¼" per day.
Theresa explained that up to ¼" per day is "evaporation" around
here. We never heard from him again
until over a year later
Customer's
statement:
Now I know why he was pushing the
new liner before the putty fell off and I saw the hole
APCO response:
We
never "pushed" for a new liner. We are
not high pressure people. Our policy is to be as conservative
as possible and to do everything in our power to help the customer. We feel that if we do the best job for our
customers, then our customers will be loyal to us. We gave him our professional opinion on how
to best repair the leak long term. In
this case that was an estimate for a new liner.
We never heard from him again regarding wanting a new liner and based
upon the condition his pool is currently in we gave him the correct advice
Customer's
statement:
So this year the putty started
falling offI'd pick it up and stick it back on the best I could until the
next piece fell offLast night, 08/06/14, I get home, find another piece on
the bottom, and I get in the pool to fix it, and there's this huge hole staring
at me that wasn't there before the putty was put on
APCO response:
The
large hole he is referring to was there but it was a smaller hole up behind the
faceplate. I even sent the customer a
photo we took with an underwater camera prior to installing the putty that
shows the leak locating dye getting drawn into the same location. I also sent him a second photo (a different
angle) of the hole up behind the faceplate.
The hole became larger as the customer did not follow our advice and
replace his liner. He chose to close the
pool with a possible leak. The pool then
drained down over the winter, again to just below the light faceplate like the
previous year. When this happens the
liner can shrink up. When the pool is
filled up again it can cause a small hole to get larger as the liner stretches
back into place. This is even more
prevalent as the liner gets older and less flexible. The customer's liner was approximately
years old in 2013. The average liner is
replaced after about 10-years. It is
never recommended to let any liner pool have the water too low for a long
period of time as they will almost certainly shrink up and then subsequently
tear when they are refilled
Customer's
statement:
It's ½" long and about ½" wideI
can't patch it myself because I just had shoulder surgeryI was perfectly fine
with replacing the putty myself this year, until I saw the gaping holeIt
looks like they tried to hide it with the extra puttyFirst he had to cover
the hole with putty, then continue with the same size bead around the light to
keep it uniform so I wouldn't noticeThat explains why there's a ridiculous
amount of putty around the light and looks terrible
APCO response:
The
amount of putty used, although unsightly was required to seal the gap between
the faceplate and the liner that is around the perimeter. This is required if there is a leak behind
the light faceplate that cannot be accessed to properly repair
Customer's
statement:
I have a picture from April last
year when I took the cover off, no hole in liner
APCO response:
This
is because the hole was up behind the faceplate. It should be noted that when he originally
called us he stated that when he took the cover off (in the spring of 2013) the
water was down to the bottom of the light faceplate (just below the area in
question)
Customer's
statement:
I changed the bulb before the guys
did the work in July, still no hole in linerIf there was, we all would have
seen it, which means the hole happened when either the guy in the water slipped
or the guy above with the pole slippedI wasn't in the water so I can't tell
you how it happened or who did it, but why would I pay $for leak detection
if there was a visible hole in the liner near the light? If you saw a 2" hole
in your liner, would you bother paying $for a leak detection test first, or
just patch the hole and see if that fixed the problem before investing hundreds
of dollars more? I paid $and not only did they not fix the leak, they made
the liner worse than it was before they started and tried to hide it by adding
extra putty, hoping I'd get a new liner before the putty fell off and I saw the
hole
APCO response:
The
location of the hole makes it almost impossible to see without getting into the
pool and looking up at the bottom of the lightAll we know for a fact, is that
the large hole "appeared" sometime between when we arrived to perform leak
detection in and August 7th when The customer contacted
us. As for the claim of "someone
slipped" would not be possible as the pole in question has a smooth, round, PVC
end on it. It is a piece of equipment
designed specifically to run along touching the pool liner while "scanning" for
leaks. There were no other tools that
could cut the liner ever placed in the water to "slip" with
Customer's
statement:
What did they really expect me to do
a year later when the putty started dropping off and this huge hole appeared?
APCO response:
The
leak putty we used is common and it can last for many, many years, if the
material it is "stuck to" does not move.
If it is stuck to a liner and the liner floats, shrinks, stretches, or
moves it is almost a sure thing it will come loose. Again, this is why we told him this was only
a temporary repair and he would need a new liner very soon
Customer's
statement:
Hope I wouldn't notice? The putty
and the work may have only been good for a year, but it still doesn't have
anything to do with the fact that the liner was damaged further while they were
supposed to be fixing it, then handed me a bill! Accidents happen, but the
correct way to fix it would have been to say, "Hey, I slipped and put a hole in
the liner," patch the hole, then put the putty around the lightNot just hid
the hole with putty
APCO response:
There
is absolutely no truth to this statement.
The customer was either there or had the option of being there while we
were doing the leak detection. He claims
we put a hole in the liner while using a "putty knife." We would never use a putty knife as the putty
is a clay like compound that can easily be formed and applied with your hands
He never saw any knife and is only guessing as to the cause. The customer himself was able to put the
putty back on without a putty knife but claims we used one. We have been performing leak detection and
repair for years and have attended many seminars and know better than to take
any tool that could possibly cut the liner in the pool
Customer's
statement:
I called Apco the next day at 7:
AM on 08/07/and told Theresa the problemShe said she'd call me backI
called again at 10:AM and she said the owner Al "remembers the job" and will
call me back in about hours when he comes back in the officeRemembers the
job? Why? Of all the jobs I'm sure they must have done since then, he remembers
mine? And he never even came out to see the finished job!
APCO response:
Theresa
never said "I remembered" the job. She
said "I would remember the job". I am very aware of what is going on
out in the fieldThis is because we have a morning meeting each work
day to discuss the prior day's jobs in addition to the work for that dayWe
also take dozens of photos and have lots of notes on every job we perform, no matter
how big or smallI always review this information prior to calling a customer
back
Customer's
statement:
Al called me back at 1:PM and
spent minutes trying to tell me that the liner pulled away from the niche
Needless to say he had an answer for everythingHe even sent a few pictures,
but no pictures of this "new" holeI told him it looked more like a cutThe
edges were smoothI told him all I want is the hole patched so I can caulk
around the outer plastic face rimHe suggested I talk to his diver friend who
wants to charge me $ I sent him a picture of the new holeIt's not really new,
it was just conveniently puttied over
APCO response:
I
suggested the diver as I know that if the light faceplate is removed the way it
is the liner will be lost as all of the holes will not match up to reinstall
the faceplate. I know better than to
start a job such as this especially if we did not install the liner to know how
the liner was stretched into placeI was not even sure if the diver would
attempt this repair but it did not matter as the customer would not entertain
any option that would cost him anything.
I offered to have the customer come to our office and review the photos
and explain everything but all he wanted is to have me send someone out there
to perform his "fix" to the area in question.
It's odd how last year he could not find any of his four leaks but now
he is an expert on repairing leaks behind the light faceplate. I've been doing pool repairs for over
years and this is one of the hardest locations to repair long term
Customer's
statement:
Too make a long story short, I
finally came across an old email that says Apco installed the new light years
after the liner was installedIf the liner wasn't installed correctly, Apco
should have made provisions for that at the time of installationApco didn't
bother to mention this to me
APCO response:
The
email he sent me was from a real estate agent when he bought the property. Yes we did install a new light, but it was
only a light bulb. It was the same task
he performed and it does not require disturbing the interface between the liner
and the light faceplate. We never
inspected the faceplate interface as the previous home owner never told us the
pool had a leak at that time. We were
just called out to put in the customer supplied light bulb. Most importantly, we have absolutely no
obligation to advise a customer of something that happened years BEFORE he
bought the property. In fact we would
never discuss any job related details without the express consent from the home
owner who paid for the services. I'm
sure he would want the same. If the
customer had a real estate pool inspection done by us we would have performed a
leak test, found that a leak existed, and advised him of the testing required
to find it, and the potential costs to repair.
This is standard procedure for any pool inspection for a real estate
transactionThe email also claims that we certified the pool "structurally
sound" when we never did any certification for the pool. The customer should call the real estate
agent and ask her why she made those statements or call the person who
put the liner in years before he bought the house
Customer's
statement:
I forwarded the email to Apco and
told them we should talk again and I'd be in touchHe called me, offended and
even defended the tech, who coincidentally doesn't even woor there anymore, in
spite of the fact that the owner hadn't even seen the hole in person
APCO response:
The
reason I was offended is that in the email he stated that "someone is not being
honest." I take our reputation very
seriously and try to treat every customer as I would want to be treated, until
they call me or my employees a liar. As
for the technician he claims does not work here anymore. There were two technicians at his pool, as
for safety reasons we never dive a pool alone.
One still works here today. The
other is on his way across country. I
still talk to him frequently and he is the best technician I have ever worked
with. I would be glad to have him back
if his trek across the country finds him back here in the future. I would trust anything he says to be fact. I have spoken to him specifically about the
customer's job and we are in agreement with everything stated here and that the
photos show
Customer's
statement:
He swears it's the liner stretching,
but there are no stress marks in the vinyl to indicate thatJust a hole with
sharp edges, like somebody used a putty knife to jam the putty in, and slipped
He couldn't argue with me so he hung up and refused to deal with me again
APCO response:
The
reason I hung up the phone was that The customer was impossible to tell
anything and he knows everything. I have
worked on thousands of liner pools over 30+ years and yet he insisted on
telling me how I should do my job. This
was after several emails and phone conversations trying to explain how the
liner is fit behind the light faceplate and why I would not perform the repair
he was suggesting. He swears there "are
no stress marks" yet this is the only liner he has ever seen with a hole like
that and can only guess at the failure mode of the material. Especially when looking at the hole while
holding your breath underwater. He told
me on the phone the liner "has no stretch to it" yet every liner manufacturer
designs the liner to be stretched into place It is the nature of how a liner is fit The photo of the hole he sent me clearly shows
the tear going up behind the face plate.
It would be impossible to "cut the liner" behind the faceplate as he
claims. I tried to discuss with the
customer how he could tell if my theory of how this occurred was correct but
all he wanted to know was "what if it wasn't".
We never installed this liner or faceplate and yet he wants me to be
responsible for it. At some point if I
cannot reason with a customer and I feel they are just trying to wear me down I
have to deal with it. I never want to
hang up on any customer but sometimes there are no choices if a customer cannot
be reasoned with
Desired Outcome/Settlement:
Customer's
statement:
Fix the hole that wasn't there when
the job was started along with the smaller holes that were there so I can
finish fixing the actual leak myself with caulk
APCO response:
I
understand the customer wants the hole repaired he claims was not there, but
this hole has always been there. It was
small and hidden last year. It is now
larger, and will continue to get larger.
This is why we recommended a new liner.
There is no reliable, long term solution, given the nature and location
of the hole.
After the installation of the liner,
the gaskets and faceplates are installed.
Then the hole for the light is cut out, it is extremely risky to remove
the light faceplate after the pool has been filled. It is even riskier if you are not the
original installer or are not aware of how the liner was initially measured,
installed, and stretched into place.
When there is a hole such as this, under a light faceplate, it is
usually recommended that a new liner be installed and that the repair is only
temporary
The
"caulk" the customer wants to use is not meant for this application. It is a flexible sealer and we have it in our
leak repair kits at all times. We are
even recommended by the manufacturer of the flexible sealer for leak detection
in this area and occasionally test their new equipment. We are an authorized warranty repair center
for several liner manufactures and have seen hundreds of liners with various
failure modes. We are more than
qualified to determine the most probable cause and the best repair for any
given situation. Flexible sealer is basically
vinyl liner glue with blue or white vinyl additive. While it can be a great help in the right
situation, I would never use it as the customer has in his situation. To do so would be a disservice to the
customer and definitely not a long term repair

Review: I had a leak detection test and patch work done in July of 2013. Two weeks after they did the job I was still losing water and told Theresa at Apco about it right away. I chalked it up to evaporation.

When the techs did the job, the lead guy said the putty he put around the plastic face rim was a temporary fix, and I should probably get a new liner soon. He also said the liner wasn’t installed right. Maybe so, but that didn’t account for another hole that wasn’t there before they started the job. Now I know why he was pushing the new liner before the putty fell off and I saw the hole.

So this year the putty started falling off. I’d pick it up and stick it back on the best I could until the next piece fell off.

Last night, 08/06/14, I get home, find another piece on the bottom, and I get in the pool to fix it, and there’s this huge hole staring at me that wasn’t there before the putty was put on. It’s 1 ½” long and about ½” wide. I can’t patch it myself because I just had shoulder surgery.

I was perfectly fine with replacing the putty myself this year, until I saw the gaping hole. It looks like they tried to hide it with the extra putty. First he had to cover the hole with putty, then continue with the same size bead around the light to keep it uniform so I wouldn’t notice. That explains why there’s a ridiculous amount of putty around the light and looks terrible.

I have a picture from April last year when I took the cover off, no hole in liner. I changed the bulb before the guys did the work in July, still no hole in liner. If there was, we all would have seen it, which means the hole happened when either the guy in the water slipped or the guy above with the pole slipped. I wasn’t in the water so I can’t tell you how it happened or who did it, but why would I pay $500 for leak detection if there was a visible hole in the liner near the light?

If you saw a 2” hole in your liner, would you bother paying $500 for a leak detection test first, or just patch the hole and see if that fixed the problem before investing hundreds of dollars more?

I paid $500 and not only did they not fix the leak, they made the liner worse than it was before they started and tried to hide it by adding extra putty, hoping I’d get a new liner before the putty fell off and I saw the hole.

What did they really expect me to do a year later when the putty started dropping off and this huge hole appeared? Hope I wouldn’t notice?

The putty and the work may have only been good for a year, but it still doesn’t have anything to do with the fact that the liner was damaged further while they were supposed to be fixing it, then handed me a bill!

Accidents happen, but the correct way to fix it would have been to say, “Hey, I slipped and put a hole in the liner,” patch the hole, then put the putty around the light. Not just hid the hole with putty.

I called Apco the next day at 7:30 AM on 08/07/14 and told Theresa the problem. She said she’d call me back. I called again at 10:00 AM and she said the owner Al “remembers the job” and will call me back in about 2 hours when he comes back in the office. Remembers the job? Why? Of all the jobs I’m sure they must have done since then, he remembers mine? And he never even came out to see the finished job!

Al called me back at 1:15 PM and spent 25 minutes trying to tell me that the liner pulled away from the niche. Needless to say he had an answer for everything. He even sent a few pictures, but no pictures of this “new” hole. I told him it looked more like a cut. The edges were smooth. I told him all I want is the hole patched so I can caulk around the outer plastic face rim. He suggested I talk to his diver friend who wants to charge me $

I sent him a picture of the new hole. It’s not really new, it was just conveniently puttied over.

Too make a long story short, I finally came across an old email that says Apco installed the new light 3 years after the liner was installed. If the liner wasn’t installed correctly, Apco should have made provisions for that at the time of installation. Apco didn’t bother to mention this to me. I forwarded the email to Apco and told them we should talk again and I’d be in touch. He called me, offended and even defended the tech, who coincidentally doesn't even woor there anymore, in spite of the fact that the owner hadn't even seen the hole in person. He swears it's the liner stretching, but there are no stress marks in the vinyl to indicate that. Just a hole with sharp edges, like somebody used a putty knife to jam the putty in, and slipped. He couldn't argue with me so he hung up and refused to deal with me again.Desired Settlement: Fix the hole that wasn't there when the job was started along with the 2 smaller holes that were there so I can finish fixing the actual leak myself with caulk.

Business

Response: