Initial Business Response / [redacted] (1000, 5, 2017/12/11) */ The customer has taken his vehicle to the dealershipWe have been in contact with the dealershipOur foremen looked at the car at the dealershipVehicle is being repairedAt this point, it does not look like the repairs we needed as a result of our work Initial Consumer Rebuttal / [redacted] (3000, 7, 2017/12/11) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) The repairs were to the valve body inside the transmission, which according to the shop foreman was a possibility from a previous attempt at Fox and Fox's to diagnose and repair the issueNot only that, but the shop foreman did contact me and once the issue was found at the dealership and he said that Fox would take responsibility for the fix, but only if they were allowed to do the workI believe I was more than patient with them the previous times they tried to diagnose and fix the problem, I also purchased parts that they said would fix the problem that were not even needed, adding to the reasons that I no longer trust Fox and Fox to work on my vehicleI think that Fox should be responsible for the part at the very least since I purchased several parts that weren't needed and they admitted responsibility to me over the phone, but they would only honor that responsibility if I let them work on my vehicle again Final Business Response / [redacted] (4000, 9, 2017/12/12) */ Firstly, please note that our shop foreman did call Mr***, but at no time did he admit responsibility for the issue He did request however that Fox & Fox have the opportunity to have the vehicle towed to us to look at the vehicle first hand and determine if the previous repairs were in anyway related to Mr***'s issuesIf they were, Fox & Fox would make those repairs at no cost to Mr*** With that said when our two shop foremen went to the dealership to look at Mr***'s vehicle and to take picturesThe technician at the dealership said with certainty that there was no way Fox & Fox could have caused Mr***'s problemThe pictures that were taken also support that theory
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2016/04/29) */
Mr*** brought his jeep to us for alignment to HIS specificationsThe reason for him provideing these specs was because his vehicle had a customized aftermarket lift kit installed that raised the vehicle beyond factory ride heightWe
performed the adjustments that Mr*** requestedHe then called and told us that the vehicle still performed badlyWe agreed to look at his vehicle again and verify that the readings were per his instructions and we didHe requested that the caster which is ab alignment angle be set to a different readingWe complied with his requestWe also installed a tracking bar, and reinstalled his front driveshaft that he had removed and did this at no additional charge to him even though further charges were justified since this was all at his requestHe picked his vehicle up and this resulted in a another request that we set the caster to a third readingWe aagain complied to his request at no additional charge to himHe then asked us to reposition the front axle under his truck 1" forward and set the caster to the same readingThis time the front driveshaft had too little engagement to operate without coming out so we did not reinstall the driveshaft and advised him of thatAll adjustments were made per Mr***'s instructions and much effort was given to attempt to make his vehicle drive the way he wanted it to even though he has customized his vehicle and is operating outside the manufacturers intended parametersWe cannot possibly gaurantee the results of these adjustments as to performance or safety when the vehicle is being operated outside of its intended designed purposeMrgot far more of our time than he paid for.There are no established guidelines other than the time spent on the vehicle for these types of repairs and he should have paid each time the vehicle was worked on since the adjustments were per his instructionsIn an attempt to help our customer we did the work with no furthur chargesAs a result no further action is warranted or justified
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2016/05/05) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
For me to have taken my vehicle in for an alignment and provide the service manager with repair specificationss or "numbers", makes no sense and to say I did is simply not true and *** knows this
*** YOU,looked at my vehicle, AND TOLD ME THAT YOU COULD DO THE WORK, period!
I had no idea what lay ahead at that time, I simply needed an alignment there was no talk of "numbers" until *** realized that they were in over their head and didn't know what to do nextThat's when, per *** request, that I began wasting hours of my time by reaching out to the manufacturers for guidance and technical data
I was told by the manufacturers that it was all TRIAL AND ERROR, and there are no set "numbers" I was also told by the manufacturer, that the GUIDELINES, which are used as a STARTING POINT, are normally between and degrees, which is what I then told *** on SEVERAL OCCASIONS
It wasn't until AFTER the first failed attempt that I provided this information to ***
I also provided *** with the manufacturers contact info, I later was told by the technical department that they had not spoken to Darrin
On my last appointment, I did in fact ASK about moving the axle forward a tad and trying again since they seemed to be at a total loss and looked to me, the customer, for guidance and advice
The end result could have been disastrous, yes I asked them to try but in the end isn't it the responsibility of the technician or some responsible party there to look at the end result and say, OK, this is a bad idea and its not going to work?
Its kind of like you the PATIENT, visiting your DOCTOR and asking him to cut off your head because you have a headache, your doctor would tell you, BAD IDEA!
lets also remember that I suggested midway through this mess that I receive a partial refund, go elsewhere, and cut everyone's lossesThat request was denied and *** told me that "We don't give refunds" and I would need to return until they got it right
Also, how can *** explain away the fact that when I went to Michiana Auto Pros on 3-23, they were able to successfully complete the work in a single appointmentAnd, THEY didn't ask ME a single question about what THEY should try next!
How can *** explain away the information provided to me at Michiana Auto Pros? The technician there told me that both front and rear axles were steering in opposite directions and the entire alignment was a "mess", taking almost the entire day for them to correct
How can *** explain away the fact that when I left Michiana Auto Pros on 3-23, that the same problems that Fox and Fox were charged with repairing, were eliminated?
Another interesting point, after my work was completed at Michiana Auto Pros,I was told by their technician that they had set my caster setting at degrees
On my visit to Fox and Fox on 3-18, my printout shows that they had set my front caster to degrees on the left and degrees on the right, which is very close
Had Fox and Fox had the needed experience and completed any of the "OTHER WORK" that apparently was involved BEFORE just doing a STANDARD ALIGNMENT, they may have been successful
The bottom line here is this, *** YOU personally inspected my vehicle prior to ANYTHING BEING DONE, and YOU told me that you could perform the work that was needed to be doneInstead, you failed miserably and took over three hundred dollars from me for doing so!
If, you in fact would have been competent and had the needed experience to do this job, we would not be arguing this now
If, as you say in your response, "WE CANNOT POSSIBLY GUARANTEE THE RESULTS OF THESE ADJUSTMENTS TO THE PERFORMANCE OR SAFETY WHEN THE VEHICLE IS BEING OPERATED OUTSIDE OF ITS INTENDED DESIGNED PURPOSE." *** like you didn't know what you were looking at when you first inspected my vehicle? I would also say that as a good business practice, if you are unable to guarantee your work,you might reconsider telling someone that your able to do it in the first place!
The other shop did in fact have the needed experience and performed ALL of the NECESSARY work in a timely and satisfactory manner
You on the other hand, are only able to offer EXCUSES for your inexperience and lack of ability to complete a service that YOU told me you could do
And then in the end of your response, YOU HAVE THE nerve to accuse ME of taking advantage of YOU and YOUR FAILED ATTEMPTS to repair my vehicle is APPALLING! I WOULD BE ASHAMED!
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2016/05/11) */
Our company charges a fee if diagnosing a vehicle requires a tech to bring it into our shop, raise it on a lift and determine the needed repairsThis is time spent by professionals for their determinationOur hourly rate is *** per hourWe
do not attempt to make money on our diagnosis but merely to cover the time it takes to find out what the vehicle needsThis is completely within industry standardsI do not know why Mr*** would expect us to do this for no charge any more than you would expect a doctor or nurse practitioner to see you in their office to write a prescription at no chargeThey don't hang signs on the wall that say we charge to look at youIt is assumed that they chargeWe have a business that looks at, diagnosis, and repairs vehicles and for that we chargeI feel that the charges were apropriate
With that said, I feel that *** response and explaination to Mr*** as to the reason for the charges was not up to our company's standardsWe are here to assist our customers with their automotive needs and problemsWe are a small family owned business that have been doing this work for many years and my reputation in the community and as a good place to do business with is important to meI am sorry for the unprofessional response and for that reason will be mailing a gift card for *** to Mr*** to be used for any service that he would like to apply it to
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2016/05/15) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
Mr *** says that industry standard is the ruling factor and then immediately jumps to a different industry to prove his pointMy experience with brakes, mufflers, body repair, is that a consumer can get an estimate or bid to determine if the auto repair shop will win the businessThey do this without a feeIf a consumer brings in a problem car and diagnostic work is done they certainly owe a feeDiagnosis is the identification of the problem by examination of the symptoms and discerning the solutionsThat did not take placeWe knew the problem and knew the solution
Mr *** sent his *** gift card, I will be sending it back
To whom this may concern: In the matter of [redacted]: I am the service manager at Luther Infiniti of Bloomington and also the person who spoke with Ms. [redacted] about the issues with her vehicle. In the letter it states that we did not pick her up from the airport when she arrived back in town....
However MS. [redacted] had informed me that her flight would arrive at approximately 12:00pm when she returned and unfortunately her flight was delayed until 11:30pm that night and the dealership was closed at that time, therefore unable to pick her up. Ms. [redacted] did have her vehicle back to the dealership on 02/02/2018 to have us look at the issue of not starting. After looking and trying to duplicate concern we were unable to verify the no start issue. As a precaution we recommended cleaning of the throttle chamber and a reset of the “engine control module” which she had agreed to. This was performed and vehicle was returned to Ms. [redacted]. The letter from the Attorney general was received to my office the week 02/12/2018 and a call was placed to Ms. [redacted] about this matter. After a brief conversation she went to her garage and started the vehicle while I was on the phone with her and vehicle started with no issues. Ms. [redacted] let me know that she no longer has an issue and this matter is closed. Rudy [redacted] Luther Infiniti of Bloomington [redacted] Bloomington MN 55431
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2017/12/11) */
The customer has taken his vehicle to the dealership. We have been in contact with the dealership. Our foremen looked at the car at the dealership. Vehicle is being repaired. At this point, it does not look like the repairs we needed as a result...
of our work.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2017/12/11) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
The repairs were to the valve body inside the transmission, which according to the shop foreman was a possibility from a previous attempt at Fox and Fox's to diagnose and repair the issue. Not only that, but the shop foreman did contact me and once the issue was found at the dealership and he said that Fox would take responsibility for the fix, but only if they were allowed to do the work. I believe I was more than patient with them the previous times they tried to diagnose and fix the problem, I also purchased parts that they said would fix the problem that were not even needed, adding to the reasons that I no longer trust Fox and Fox to work on my vehicle. I think that Fox should be responsible for the part at the very least since I purchased several parts that weren't needed and they admitted responsibility to me over the phone, but they would only honor that responsibility if I let them work on my vehicle again.
Final Business Response /* (4000, 9, 2017/12/12) */
Firstly, please note that our shop foreman did call Mr. [redacted], but at no time did he admit responsibility for the issue.
He did request however that Fox & Fox have the opportunity to have the vehicle towed to us to look at the vehicle first hand and determine if the previous repairs were in anyway related to Mr. [redacted]'s issues. If they were, Fox & Fox would make those repairs at no cost to Mr. [redacted].
With that said when our two shop foremen went to the dealership to look at Mr. [redacted]'s vehicle and to take pictures. The technician at the dealership said with certainty that there was no way Fox & Fox could have caused Mr. [redacted]'s problem. The pictures that were taken also support that theory.
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2015/06/12) */
Contact Name and Title: [redacted] President
Contact Phone: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Contact Email: [redacted]@foxandfoxservice.com
We are currently actively working with our customer to resolve this matter and expect to bring this to a conclusion very...
soon.
OFFER:
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (2000, 7, 2015/06/17) */
(The consumer indicated he/she ACCEPTED the response from the business.)
The problem is taken care of.
Initial Business Response / [redacted] (1000, 5, 2017/12/11) */ The customer has taken his vehicle to the dealershipWe have been in contact with the dealershipOur foremen looked at the car at the dealershipVehicle is being repairedAt this point, it does not look like the repairs we needed as a result of our work Initial Consumer Rebuttal / [redacted] (3000, 7, 2017/12/11) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) The repairs were to the valve body inside the transmission, which according to the shop foreman was a possibility from a previous attempt at Fox and Fox's to diagnose and repair the issueNot only that, but the shop foreman did contact me and once the issue was found at the dealership and he said that Fox would take responsibility for the fix, but only if they were allowed to do the workI believe I was more than patient with them the previous times they tried to diagnose and fix the problem, I also purchased parts that they said would fix the problem that were not even needed, adding to the reasons that I no longer trust Fox and Fox to work on my vehicleI think that Fox should be responsible for the part at the very least since I purchased several parts that weren't needed and they admitted responsibility to me over the phone, but they would only honor that responsibility if I let them work on my vehicle again Final Business Response / [redacted] (4000, 9, 2017/12/12) */ Firstly, please note that our shop foreman did call Mr***, but at no time did he admit responsibility for the issue He did request however that Fox & Fox have the opportunity to have the vehicle towed to us to look at the vehicle first hand and determine if the previous repairs were in anyway related to Mr***'s issuesIf they were, Fox & Fox would make those repairs at no cost to Mr*** With that said when our two shop foremen went to the dealership to look at Mr***'s vehicle and to take picturesThe technician at the dealership said with certainty that there was no way Fox & Fox could have caused Mr***'s problemThe pictures that were taken also support that theory
Received voicemail from Mr [redacted] (12/14) indicating receipt of check as requestedClosing case as resolved
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2016/04/29) */
Mr*** brought his jeep to us for alignment to HIS specificationsThe reason for him provideing these specs was because his vehicle had a customized aftermarket lift kit installed that raised the vehicle beyond factory ride heightWe
performed the adjustments that Mr*** requestedHe then called and told us that the vehicle still performed badlyWe agreed to look at his vehicle again and verify that the readings were per his instructions and we didHe requested that the caster which is ab alignment angle be set to a different readingWe complied with his requestWe also installed a tracking bar, and reinstalled his front driveshaft that he had removed and did this at no additional charge to him even though further charges were justified since this was all at his requestHe picked his vehicle up and this resulted in a another request that we set the caster to a third readingWe aagain complied to his request at no additional charge to himHe then asked us to reposition the front axle under his truck 1" forward and set the caster to the same readingThis time the front driveshaft had too little engagement to operate without coming out so we did not reinstall the driveshaft and advised him of thatAll adjustments were made per Mr***'s instructions and much effort was given to attempt to make his vehicle drive the way he wanted it to even though he has customized his vehicle and is operating outside the manufacturers intended parametersWe cannot possibly gaurantee the results of these adjustments as to performance or safety when the vehicle is being operated outside of its intended designed purposeMrgot far more of our time than he paid for.There are no established guidelines other than the time spent on the vehicle for these types of repairs and he should have paid each time the vehicle was worked on since the adjustments were per his instructionsIn an attempt to help our customer we did the work with no furthur chargesAs a result no further action is warranted or justified
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2016/05/05) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
For me to have taken my vehicle in for an alignment and provide the service manager with repair specificationss or "numbers", makes no sense and to say I did is simply not true and *** knows this
*** YOU,looked at my vehicle, AND TOLD ME THAT YOU COULD DO THE WORK, period!
I had no idea what lay ahead at that time, I simply needed an alignment there was no talk of "numbers" until *** realized that they were in over their head and didn't know what to do nextThat's when, per *** request, that I began wasting hours of my time by reaching out to the manufacturers for guidance and technical data
I was told by the manufacturers that it was all TRIAL AND ERROR, and there are no set "numbers" I was also told by the manufacturer, that the GUIDELINES, which are used as a STARTING POINT, are normally between and degrees, which is what I then told *** on SEVERAL OCCASIONS
It wasn't until AFTER the first failed attempt that I provided this information to ***
I also provided *** with the manufacturers contact info, I later was told by the technical department that they had not spoken to Darrin
On my last appointment, I did in fact ASK about moving the axle forward a tad and trying again since they seemed to be at a total loss and looked to me, the customer, for guidance and advice
The end result could have been disastrous, yes I asked them to try but in the end isn't it the responsibility of the technician or some responsible party there to look at the end result and say, OK, this is a bad idea and its not going to work?
Its kind of like you the PATIENT, visiting your DOCTOR and asking him to cut off your head because you have a headache, your doctor would tell you, BAD IDEA!
lets also remember that I suggested midway through this mess that I receive a partial refund, go elsewhere, and cut everyone's lossesThat request was denied and *** told me that "We don't give refunds" and I would need to return until they got it right
Also, how can *** explain away the fact that when I went to Michiana Auto Pros on 3-23, they were able to successfully complete the work in a single appointmentAnd, THEY didn't ask ME a single question about what THEY should try next!
How can *** explain away the information provided to me at Michiana Auto Pros? The technician there told me that both front and rear axles were steering in opposite directions and the entire alignment was a "mess", taking almost the entire day for them to correct
How can *** explain away the fact that when I left Michiana Auto Pros on 3-23, that the same problems that Fox and Fox were charged with repairing, were eliminated?
Another interesting point, after my work was completed at Michiana Auto Pros,I was told by their technician that they had set my caster setting at degrees
On my visit to Fox and Fox on 3-18, my printout shows that they had set my front caster to degrees on the left and degrees on the right, which is very close
Had Fox and Fox had the needed experience and completed any of the "OTHER WORK" that apparently was involved BEFORE just doing a STANDARD ALIGNMENT, they may have been successful
The bottom line here is this, *** YOU personally inspected my vehicle prior to ANYTHING BEING DONE, and YOU told me that you could perform the work that was needed to be doneInstead, you failed miserably and took over three hundred dollars from me for doing so!
If, you in fact would have been competent and had the needed experience to do this job, we would not be arguing this now
If, as you say in your response, "WE CANNOT POSSIBLY GUARANTEE THE RESULTS OF THESE ADJUSTMENTS TO THE PERFORMANCE OR SAFETY WHEN THE VEHICLE IS BEING OPERATED OUTSIDE OF ITS INTENDED DESIGNED PURPOSE." *** like you didn't know what you were looking at when you first inspected my vehicle? I would also say that as a good business practice, if you are unable to guarantee your work,you might reconsider telling someone that your able to do it in the first place!
The other shop did in fact have the needed experience and performed ALL of the NECESSARY work in a timely and satisfactory manner
You on the other hand, are only able to offer EXCUSES for your inexperience and lack of ability to complete a service that YOU told me you could do
And then in the end of your response, YOU HAVE THE nerve to accuse ME of taking advantage of YOU and YOUR FAILED ATTEMPTS to repair my vehicle is APPALLING! I WOULD BE ASHAMED!
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2016/05/11) */
Our company charges a fee if diagnosing a vehicle requires a tech to bring it into our shop, raise it on a lift and determine the needed repairsThis is time spent by professionals for their determinationOur hourly rate is *** per hourWe
do not attempt to make money on our diagnosis but merely to cover the time it takes to find out what the vehicle needsThis is completely within industry standardsI do not know why Mr*** would expect us to do this for no charge any more than you would expect a doctor or nurse practitioner to see you in their office to write a prescription at no chargeThey don't hang signs on the wall that say we charge to look at youIt is assumed that they chargeWe have a business that looks at, diagnosis, and repairs vehicles and for that we chargeI feel that the charges were apropriate
With that said, I feel that *** response and explaination to Mr*** as to the reason for the charges was not up to our company's standardsWe are here to assist our customers with their automotive needs and problemsWe are a small family owned business that have been doing this work for many years and my reputation in the community and as a good place to do business with is important to meI am sorry for the unprofessional response and for that reason will be mailing a gift card for *** to Mr*** to be used for any service that he would like to apply it to
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2016/05/15) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
Mr *** says that industry standard is the ruling factor and then immediately jumps to a different industry to prove his pointMy experience with brakes, mufflers, body repair, is that a consumer can get an estimate or bid to determine if the auto repair shop will win the businessThey do this without a feeIf a consumer brings in a problem car and diagnostic work is done they certainly owe a feeDiagnosis is the identification of the problem by examination of the symptoms and discerning the solutionsThat did not take placeWe knew the problem and knew the solution
Mr *** sent his *** gift card, I will be sending it back
Received voicemail from Mr [redacted] (12/14) indicating receipt of check as requested. Closing case as resolved.
To whom this may concern: In the matter of [redacted]: I am the service manager at Luther Infiniti of Bloomington and also the person who spoke with Ms. [redacted] about the issues with her vehicle. In the letter it states that we did not pick her up from the airport when she arrived back in town....
However MS. [redacted] had informed me that her flight would arrive at approximately 12:00pm when she returned and unfortunately her flight was delayed until 11:30pm that night and the dealership was closed at that time, therefore unable to pick her up. Ms. [redacted] did have her vehicle back to the dealership on 02/02/2018 to have us look at the issue of not starting. After looking and trying to duplicate concern we were unable to verify the no start issue. As a precaution we recommended cleaning of the throttle chamber and a reset of the “engine control module” which she had agreed to. This was performed and vehicle was returned to Ms. [redacted]. The letter from the Attorney general was received to my office the week 02/12/2018 and a call was placed to Ms. [redacted] about this matter. After a brief conversation she went to her garage and started the vehicle while I was on the phone with her and vehicle started with no issues. Ms. [redacted] let me know that she no longer has an issue and this matter is closed. Rudy [redacted] Luther Infiniti of Bloomington [redacted] Bloomington MN 55431
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2017/12/11) */
The customer has taken his vehicle to the dealership. We have been in contact with the dealership. Our foremen looked at the car at the dealership. Vehicle is being repaired. At this point, it does not look like the repairs we needed as a result...
of our work.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2017/12/11) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
The repairs were to the valve body inside the transmission, which according to the shop foreman was a possibility from a previous attempt at Fox and Fox's to diagnose and repair the issue. Not only that, but the shop foreman did contact me and once the issue was found at the dealership and he said that Fox would take responsibility for the fix, but only if they were allowed to do the work. I believe I was more than patient with them the previous times they tried to diagnose and fix the problem, I also purchased parts that they said would fix the problem that were not even needed, adding to the reasons that I no longer trust Fox and Fox to work on my vehicle. I think that Fox should be responsible for the part at the very least since I purchased several parts that weren't needed and they admitted responsibility to me over the phone, but they would only honor that responsibility if I let them work on my vehicle again.
Final Business Response /* (4000, 9, 2017/12/12) */
Firstly, please note that our shop foreman did call Mr. [redacted], but at no time did he admit responsibility for the issue.
He did request however that Fox & Fox have the opportunity to have the vehicle towed to us to look at the vehicle first hand and determine if the previous repairs were in anyway related to Mr. [redacted]'s issues. If they were, Fox & Fox would make those repairs at no cost to Mr. [redacted].
With that said when our two shop foremen went to the dealership to look at Mr. [redacted]'s vehicle and to take pictures. The technician at the dealership said with certainty that there was no way Fox & Fox could have caused Mr. [redacted]'s problem. The pictures that were taken also support that theory.
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2015/06/12) */
Contact Name and Title: [redacted] President
Contact Phone: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Contact Email: [redacted]@foxandfoxservice.com
We are currently actively working with our customer to resolve this matter and expect to bring this to a conclusion very...
soon.
OFFER:
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (2000, 7, 2015/06/17) */
(The consumer indicated he/she ACCEPTED the response from the business.)
The problem is taken care of.