Beartooth Ford

Revdex.com,I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID *** and have determined that this does not resolve my complaintFor your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.I will address Mr H*** response below, in particular his understanding of the problem and the operation of vehicles he sells and services
The problem I encountered was multi-layered and no, I feel no need to file a complaint with Idaho dealership as they acted in good faith and repaired a portion of the problem that would have required repair regardless of the cause
The problem started DURING THE TEST DRIVE, but me not being familiar with Ford diesel operation, asked the salesman who told me it was normal It was not The Driver Control Center (DCC) showed a "Drive to Clean Exhaust" message I was told this was normal While it is a function of the system, it is a warning that the Exhaust Cleaning cycle has tried to complete several times and failed During my drive home this message was constant until the engine eventually went into "limp mode" and forced the tow to the nearest dealer (I texted the salesman at this time and he agreed with towing.)
The Idaho dealer ran several tests and confirmed the exhaust filter was so severely blocked that it needed replacement The technician showed me the computer diagnostics showing the restricted exhaust flow and then the diagnostics after the replacement with airflow There is no doubt the filter was clogged and they tried a "manual regeneration" prior to replacing the filter They repaired the obvious problem that had forced the truck into a limited power mode but also advised there may be deeper issues that caused the blockage They also noted the incorrect coolant but it now 4pm on Saturday and I elected to address that problem when I got home rather than spend the weekend in a hotel waiting for service the following week
On the drive home the truck attempted several exhaust cleaning cycles (which is normal) but wouldn't complete Because I'd just spent hrs in a dealership waiting room with nothing to do but research similar issues on Ford enthusiast websites I'd leaned that specific engine temperate is a parameter required for complete exhaust cleaning I noticed that the engine coolant temp seemed low so the next time it started a cleaning cycle I brought the engine RPM up by downshifting and the coolant temp rose and the exhaust clean cycle completed as designed During the drive and subsequent days of driving at home I drove normally and the exhaust cleaning continued to fail (without me forcing the temperatures up with abdriving.) I took the truck to my local dealer who found a failed thermostat
As Mr H*** notes in his letter, the wrong coolant causes corrosion which leads to thermostat failure Thermostat failure doesn't allow the engine to come to temperature The low temp doesn't allow the exhaust cleaning to complete and repeated failures with damage and clog the filter
My complaint is based on the incorrect statement that an experienced mechanic had inspected and driven the vehicle and that it was in good working order I bought the vehicle based on that representation The discounted price was based on significant cosmetic issues of hail damage, scratches on the fenders, and a cracked windshield
Had an experienced and attentive mechanic done a proper cursory inspection they would have found two issues of concern
1) The wrong coolant which causes internal corrosion
2) The persistent "Drive to Clean Exhaust" message
Both issues could have pointed to deeper issues and should have prevented a clean bill of health as represented by Mr H*** and his salesman I find it unacceptable that Mr H*** accepts zero responsibility for problems, refuses any financial assistance, and essentially invokes buyer beware as a defense I expected to make some small repairs and discover minor unknown problems or repair issuesI did not reasonably expect to spend over $just to make it road worthy That should not have been case with a vehicle bought from a dealer of the brand that claimed to have inspected the vehicle
Directly from Ford - note the word "require"
What type of coolant should be used in my Power Stroke Diesel? There are many types of coolant on the market, but 6.0L and 6.4L Power Stroke Diesel engines require Motorcraft Premium Gold Engine Coolant (part number VC-7-B)Motorcraft Gold provides optimal protection for the engine and other cooling system components
Regards,*** ***

I am in receipt of the complaint from Mr. [redacted]. 
Mr [redacted] negotiated this deal via phone and web, flew into Billings and inspected the truck.  We were asking $27,995 for the truck, but he was firm on his $25000 bottom line offer.  There was very little profit in this deal and...

he knew that the truck was sold as is and signed a statement acknowledging such.  He is an ex car salesman and knows that there is absolutely no way of knowing when a vehicle will break down.  He did not purchase and extended warranty, so any future repairs would be his responsibility.
This is a small town dealership and we see most of our customers in the grocery store.  We inspected this vehicle with our certified mechanics and it was in proper working order.  He test drove the vehicle and decided it was a great truck for him to purchase.  There is absolutely no pressure to every buy at this dealership.
Mr. [redacted] failed to mention that the first breakdown, where he spent a majority of the money, did not actually repair the vehicle.  That leaves me to wonder if he contacted the Revdex.com on the dealership that charged him and didn't actually repair the truck?  Ford recommends coolant types for certain vehicles (just like oil and filters), that doesn't mean it is required.  The main impact coolant has on a vehicle is, if mixed improperly, ph balance can cause corrosion.  This would have no effect on the exhaust system.  The thermostat is difficult to inspect.  If it is working, there is no need to repair, when it fails, that's when it gets repaired.  There is now way to know when it may or may not fail. 
I had a discussion with Mr. [redacted] and he told me and the salesman that he understood that these things happen and that vehicles break down.  I have no way of knowing if he needed all of that exhaust work that he paid for.  I do believe that he had a thermostat failure, and that can't be inspected.
Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Thanks,
Wes H[redacted]

Review: In August of 2012 we purchased a 2010 Ford F-350 pickup from Beartooth Ford. We were told it was "chipped" for better fuel efficiency, which voided the warranty. It had low miles, so we weren't concerned. When licensing it, the clerk said it was a salvage title. Then, somehow, found a clean title on it. We had a carfax done in February, 2013. This report showed it was purchased brand new in July, 2010, and then wrecked and totalled on October 31, 2010 in the state of Wyoming. We began an investigation, starting with Beartooth Ford. My girlfriend, (co-owner of the truck) took in the Montana title, as requested by the owner of Beartooth Ford. The title was a clean title, so the owner said nothing could be done. We then investigated by contacting the local treasurer's office. They said they would look into it. When we checked back with them, they stated that there was nothing they could do either. We contacted the Helena, MT. treasurer's office. They said nothing could be done as it came from Arizona as a clean title. After investigating Arizona, they confirmed it was in fact a salvage vehicle that somehow received a clean title there, however, they claim that it is still the responsibility of Beartooth Ford to purchase it back. My girlfriend then spoke to the owner a couple more times. She was told that they would help us by trading it in on another vehicle, thereby being upside down on the loan, and they would take a little off to "help". She also suggested taking the truck to another dealership, and dumping it off on them. We are trying to do the right thing here. It's only worth $12,000 now. We also took the truck to a mechanic who stated the truck is NOT chipped. The only reason the warranty would be voided, would be from the accident where it was totalled. She claims she does not believe in carfax. We believe she knew all this, and was taking advantage of 2 titles being out there, Montana having the "clean" one. We believe this because she lied about it being "chipped".Desired Settlement: Full buy back of the truck. Payoff is $33,348.36. With that we also request $469 for licensing, $700 for insurance paid. Or, we can keep the truck, and we request $20,000.00 to pay off the amount of money owed to what the truck is actually worth now. That leaves us owing $1000.00 more than the actual value of the truck.

Business

Response:

In response to your letter dated 4/15/2013 ID 9502279

Mr. [redacted] and Ms, [redacted] did buy the F350 from this dealership in August 2012. The factory warranty was voided by Ford Motor Company. That information was disclosed and we told them that there were many reasons why Ford would void a warranty, chipping, alterations, illegal "farm" fuel etc. We had no reason to believe that the vehicle had been totaled because we had the clean title issued by the State of Montana.

I spoke to the ladies at the Treasurers' Office. They said that they would not have known that there was a problem with this title unless the computer flagged the title in their system. Since that did not happen, they would not have ever said it was salvage.

I understand that the State of Arizona issued a title on this vehicle without flagging it as salvage. Ms. [redacted] has been in my office a few times saying that Arizona missed that and printed a wrong title. Ms. [redacted] has also told me that they can't afford the payment after getting behind on the bills after the birth of their child. She also said that she knows that we did not do anything wrong. Although I sympathize with their situation, I do not deal in salvage titles and did NOT knowingly commit fraud. That is an outrageous accusation. After speaking with Ms. [redacted], she told me that her boyfriend needed to come in and apologize for his behavior. I told her that would not be necessary. I have known Ms. [redacted] for 11 years and she knows that my husband and I do not conduct business In such a manner.

Mr. [redacted] did threaten me with a lawsuit, because he already spoke to his attorney. 1 did ask that any future correspondence come directly from his attorney. Again Ms. [redacted] has apologized for his behavior and asked if I could help her out. I did do some research and found that the State of Montana continued to state that this vehicle was not Salvage. I do not know where the state stands on that issue, but last time I spoke to Ms. [redacted], she said she was going after the State of Arizona because they admitted that they mistakenly issued a clean title.

I believe Mr. [redacted] has tried to bully everyone that he can. I believe that his motivations are financially motivated and that he is not trying to do the right thing, but that he is trying to lower his monthly bills. His credit union told them they would refinance the note after a few months to lower the payment, but were unable to do the refinance. I understand the financial hardship they have encountered, but I did not lie to them, 1 did not know that the vehicle has a Salvage title and would never misrepresent a vehicle to a customer.

I have been in business in Columbus for 11 years and have never had such outrageous accusations hurled at me or my business. I am disgusted by some of the lies Mr. [redacted] wrote in his letter. I would be happy to discuss with your office, but will not take calls from Mr. [redacted].

From time to time I do encounter unhappy customers, but we have always been able to resolve any issues. This dealership will not buy the truck back, we will not donate $20,000 to Mr [redacted]'s cause, we will not reimburse him for plates or for insurance.

Please feel free to contact me if you have further questions or concerns.

Thanks

Beartooth Ford

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Consumer

Response:

[To assist us in bringing this matter to a close, you must give us a reason why you are rejecting the response. If no reason is received your complaint will be closed Administratively Resolved]

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID 9502279, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

We, [redacted] and [redacted] are presenting truths about this case. The fact that [redacted], owner, brings up our personal life and financial situation is both irrelevant and unprofessional. She is trying to make excuses and distract you from the truth. This is not a case of purchasing a vehicle, and trying to make her buy it back because we can't afford it. She sold us a damaged vehicle, and we believe she knew it. She specifically told us the warranty was voided because it was chipped. We had to ask what chipping was. She explained it in great detail. We wouldn't have been concerned about chipping, had that not been the specific reason for the voided warranty. This vehicle is NOT chipped. We are faxing you a copy of the carfax. We also took it to a mechanic who confirmed that it isn't. She said it was a "smoking" deal since she gave such a low offer to the guy who traded it in to her.

[redacted] spoke with the ladies in the treasurer's office, as well. The treasurer was willing to investigate our case when she first spoke to her. The second time she spoke to the treasurer, after [redacted] had contacted them, her attitude was totally different. She was unwilling to help, and said it was a clean title, and that they can't just change a title to license it. We believe [redacted] and the treasurer spoke to get their stories straight. When [redacted] went to license the truck in the first place, the clerk said it was a salvage title. Then came up with the clean title. [redacted] spoke to the treasurer's office in Deer Lodge yesterday. They said it was marked salvaged on the national register, where it should have been noticed, but that Montana held a clean title on it. So, in fact, it was flagged. It did come up in their system.

Regardless of what [redacted] thinks of me, I am not a bully, nor am I telling any lies. I have every right to threaten her with an attorney, when I have been wronged. As far as [redacted] apologizing for me, and telling the dealership it wasn't their fault...this is true. However, this was before we discovered that the truck was not chipped. This lost her trust. We ARE trying to do the right thing. The owners spoke to [redacted] at her workplace in front of camera, stating she should trade off the truck in North Dakota, since that particular truck is in high demand. We are trying to correct the situation right now. If we did as they suggested, and traded it off to an unsuspecting person, we would be no better people than her. We have no problem paying for what the truck is NOW worth. Even with a clean Montana title, dealerships will see the details on the carfax. Owner also stated that she did not believe in carfax, as many salvaged titles come up when they are only hail damaged. We do see on her website, however, that all her used cars have an auto check icon. This is why we are certain that she was aware of this. We believe she "skated" by the fact that there was a clean Montana title on it. This is a smart lady, and would not take in this vehicle without knowing the history of it. Especially, since she gave such a low price for the chipping of it.

We did file a claim with risk management in the state of Arizona. They claimed immunity, and denied our claim. However, Arizona, our financial institution, and other Ford dealerships all agree...it falls on the responsibility of Beartooth Ford.

We have a hard time understanding why [redacted] is so "disgusted" by this situation. She got her money for it. This hasn't hurt her one bit. The fact that she attacks our personal life instead of telling the truth, just shows her character. We are hoping that she does the right thing here. It is a small town. She can buy it back, and be the hero. If not, we don't mind telling everyone of our shopping experience. We have already been hearing other local "horror" stories of their experiences as well.

Regards,

[redacted] J. [redacted]

Business

Response:

Response to ID 9502279:

Mr. [redacted],

I believe that my previous response to this allegation has

covered all of the original concerns, but I will address the new concerns as

well.

To accuse a County Treasurer’s office of being in cahoots

with the local car dealer is OUTRAGAEOUS!

I do not believe that the Treasurer would knowingly defraud a citizen of

this county to protect a business.

I gave Ms. [redacted] a photocopy of the title when she visited my

office. I was in possession of the title

when she bought the vehicle. I had no

reason to believe it was salvage, because Montana is a title holding state and

we had the title. It was NOT marked salvage

and neither is the title that Ms. [redacted] and Mr. [redacted] have for the truck today. Again, I do not subscribe to carfax at this

dealership. If a customer would like to

pull a carfax or asks for a carfax, we will get on line and get one. They did not ask for one and I never pulled

one.

Ms. [redacted] and Mr. [redacted] claim that I am a smart lady and

knew the history of the vehicle. This

smart lady would never risk the reputation of my business over one car

deal. I have been in business far too

long.

I am sure the state of Arizona claims “immunity”, they made

a mistake. I was unaware and had no way

of knowing that a mistake was made in another state a year prior. There was no intention to commit fraud, it

was an error by the state of Arizona.

This dealership is not responsible for mistakes made by county officials

from any state.

I spoke to [redacted] at Valley Federal Credit Union, Ms. [redacted]’s

financial institution, she NEVER said that she thought this dealership was

responsible. She said it was

unfortunate. I agree, however

unintentional.

I understand that Ms. [redacted] and Mr. [redacted] claim that they

have heard of other local horror stories, but I have not. Usually when a customer has a complaint, we

are able to work it out directly with that customer. We have never been accused of committing

fraud by a customer and I do not believe that our customers would claim that

they had that experience here.

I am unaware of the process in which the national registry

and the State DMV finally connect to make a title salvage, so I cannot speak to

that issue.

Thank you for your time.

If you have any questions regarding this response, please feel free to

contact me directly.

Beartooth Ford

Consumer

Response:

[To assist us in bringing this matter to a close, you must give us a reason why you are rejecting the response. If no reason is received your complaint will be closed Administratively Resolved]

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID 9502279, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

Bottom line is she directly lied abouth the truck being chipped. That gives us every right to believe she would lie about everything else. She did not directly answer this point in her last letter. Instead, danced around the other points. In the end, all other factors, although supporting, don't mean as much as that first lie: The warranty is voided because the truck was chipped. She knows she said it - we know she said it. It's common sense that anyone purchasing that new of a vehicle, with low miles would question why it had a voided warranty. That was her one and ONLY reason.

We will address her points. First of all, we have never spoken to Cheryl at our financial institution. They are cooperating with us while we investigate. As they know, if we let them reposess it - they will be stuck with a truck that's no longer worth what they loaned - just like us. As for the treasurer's office - we are only investigating what seems suspiscious to us. We are accounting what our experiences were, and how we felt. [redacted] spoke to Tara in the Dear Lodge, Montana treasurer's office. Tara told her "It sounds like they need a refresher training course down there." The title is flagged, it should have been caught. We are not suggesting that it's a conspiracy between Beartooth Ford and the treasurer's office. We are suggesting that the owners of Beartooth Ford knew the status of the truck, but cashed in on the mistake made by the treasurer's office. Her only leg to stand on is this "clean" title in Montana. We believe they knowingly sold us a junk vehicle, but knew they would be covered by the mistake on Montana. This why we believe no one else is responsible, but the owners. They had to come up with a reason for a voided warranty. There would be no other reason to lie about the voided warranty. The fact that it is not chipped makes us believe this was a made up story right from the start. They didn't think we would be smart enough to investigate all of this.

This is not the first salvage vehicle they have had to buy back. They have insurance for this sort of thing. [redacted] has bought a total of 7 vehicles from this lady. Her 11 years of business ownership means nothing. [redacted] was born and raised in this community, is related to a lot of it, and is a trustworthy person. We would not just fire off accusations for no reason. WE ARE THE VICTIMS in this case, not Tonya. Although, she would love for you to believe that. Maybe she should look into the word customer, and what that word means to her business.

We gave her many chances to correct the situation. We tried to get her to even lower the price of the vehicle. She ignored my calls. She was not willing to cooperate. This is why we contacted you. She took it personal, and attacked our personal and financial life, instead of working towards a solution. The fact that she brings up our personal and financial life, only supports our case more. Simply put, we can not trade in this vehicle to get something cheaper. We are stuck with this piece of garbage she dumped on us. If she stops and looks at the big picture, she will see how it looks. She can act all shocked and hurt. How does she think we feel? She has a dealership worth lots of money, and insuranct to cover this. She had all the resources to help us when we first came to her. We are average customers, who put our trust in her selling us a quality vehicle. We are already experiencing problems with this truck. She did, however, call me right away after we filed this complaint. To sum it all up: There would be no other reason to lie in the first place, if she wasn't trying to cover it up.

These are all the facts. We are faxing our documents today. Please feel free to contact us for any questions about the case, or our documents.

Now, this is what we FEEL she is saying to us: Too bad suckers - we lose nothing - we dumped this problem on to you, now you deal with it. We are business owners, who don't care about the little people, poor people, or "so called" friends. This is our opinion, and we don't mind sharing it.

Regards,

[redacted] J. [redacted]

Consumer

Response:

These are the facts: In August of 2010 we, [redacted] and [redacted] purchased a 2010 Ford F-350 pickup from Beartooth Ford. When we purchased it, the owner told us the warranty was voided due to the fact it was chipped. That was her ONLY reason for the warranty being voided. In February we discovered it was a salvage vehicle. A carfax shows that it was wrecked and totalled in the state of Wyoming on October 31st, 2010. The title was cleared in Arizona. We have spoken to the treasurer's offices in Columbus, MT, Helena, MT, Deer Lodge, MT, and Phoenix, AZ. After extensive research, and filing a claim with Arizona's risk management, we discovered that the truck is flagged in the national register, and this truck is NOT chipped. We are holding a clean Montana title on it, however, we can never trade this vehicle in to any dealership, because they will see the carfax on it, and we will never get the value we paid out of this truck.

We tried to work with the owner, but she was uncooperative. Even in her return letters to the Revdex.com, she attacked our personal and financial lives, and placed the blame on everyone else. She suggested dumping it off on someone else. She has insurance for this. She had us running in circles in the beginning trying to find who was responsible, but in the end it's her. It's her job to know the vehicles she takes in, and we believe since she saw the clean title on it...that was her escape. Her one problem though, is the lie she had to come up with in the beginning....why would the warranty be voided??? She couldn't tell us it was wrecked and totalled...so she made up the story that it was chipped.

We are asking for full payback of the truck, plus licensing, insurance, and maintenance paid.