Big Apple Herpetological

Revdex.com:
I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID# ***, and have determined that my complaint has NOT been resolved because:
Contrary to the opening line of MrS***'* last message, his sales department NEVER contradicted the website description that the snake was Born at the Seller's US Facility In my mind, it was never either/or, but always USA Captive Born AT THE SELLER'S FACILITY, which the sales team clearly knew both because I worded my inquiry this way several times AND because the seller's website unambiguously describes it in this way. The bottom line is that the animal sold was NOT, by MrS*** own admission AFTER THE FACT, Captive Bred at Big Apple's US Facility as it is clearly and unambiguously indicated on their website from which the purchase was made This is important because MrS*** is essentially selling animals under the pretense of having full knowledge of the animal's history and health from its BIRTH, which in this case was the difference between life and death.Yes, the snake was a beautiful animal, I was very excited to receive it (after all, I had waited two months for its birth), and for the four days that it was in my possession, it showed no obvious signs of ill health--which makes the situation all the more upsetting; but the fact remains that it died in 4-days under ideal conditions and maintained with top of the line equipment The enclosure had been sand monitored for over a month prior to its arrival and in every email shared with the sales team it was abundantly clear that my concern was always with the health and wellbeing of the animal.I do not know with absolutely specificity why the animal died, but clearly it had (hidden) health issues PRIOR to its sale as evidenced by its death 4-days after its arrival (I can think of few if any reptile species that would die in 4-days even in suboptimal conditions if it started 100% healthy).MrS*** and/or his employees very well may not have been aware of the animal's ill health prior to sale, BECAUSE contrary to his website description, the animal was NOT born at his US facility Any number of health issues, either congenital or internal may have been at play, and neither I as a buyer or even he as a second hand seller would have this information This is the crux of my complaint Had the animal been born at his facility as it was clearly stated on the website, and to my understanding confirmed by his sales associates, he would be in a much stronger position to guarantee the animal's health As it is, he has offered no information about the origins of the animal so that I cannot even be sure that it is a USA born animal, and given that MrS*** has been so deceptive and uncooperative, I have no reason to "take his word of it."As the e-mails clearly show, my interest in the animal being US captive bred was always with the understanding that it was born AT THE SELLER'S FACILITY, as promised on the website from which the sale was made When the sales team confirmed it was US bred, obviously I took that to mean that it was bred at their facility as listed on the site The sales team had to know this given the number of times I brought the issue up, though in hindsight I see that the sales team was intentionally vague and incomplete in their answers, being consistently inconsistent, but at the time I took this only to be the curtness common of a busy sales department The fact is, if I hadn't been extra concerned about the health of the animal AND concerned that the advertised price had not been honored, I might not have even thought to confirm the truth of the website description at all After all, I'd done business with Big Apple Herp for almost years, the thought that they were actively deceiving me did not cross my mind.MrS*** is essentially trying to benefit from the fact that his sales team is good at equivocating (which I highly doubt is coincidental), so that they never fully confirmed the website description, but never contradicted it either.The bottom line is that the website, from which the purchase was made makes an explicit statement regarding the animal's origins, origins that had a direct impact on the animal's health, and ultimately it's survival MrS***, having been in the reptile industry as long as I have been keeping them, knows this is true He knows the value of purchasing animals directly from those who breed them, that's why his website states that they are bred at the facility--it adds immediate value to the animal Otherwise, why listed them as "Born at our Facility" at all?The sales associate Gina's comments regarding the beauty of "our last brood" were clearly meant to imply that the animals were born at the Seller's facility, and openly contradicts MrS*** claim that they do not produce the animals and are unable to acquire manyGiven the website description, why would I believe that the words "our brood" would mean anything other than "several animals that we produced"?The sales team clearly used deceptive tactics, some subtle and some not so subtle (and perhaps illegal), to manipulate my trusting concern Contrary to MrS*** assertion that I have been unwilling to be reasonable, I have made every effort to understand MrS*** position on this issue (I would be happy to share our extensive back and forth via e-mail) The fact that MrS*** refuses to even acknowledge, let alone address, the inconsistencies in the website description, advertisement, his sales associates and finally his words regarding this animal's origins and price, and his offers of minimal compensation, baffle the mind given the circumstances.The entire series of events has led me to believe that MrS*** is actively engaged in activities that are meant to defraud customers, and that clearly put animals at risk, and more than anything, I hope that the outcome of this dispute is that more careful scrutiny will be paid to the business practices of Big Apple Pet Supplies As the Seller has offered no further argument or evidence to support his case and remains obstinate in his refusal to acknowledge either the fact that the snake was clearly and unambiguously advertised as having been "Born at our facility" on the website from which the purchase was made, and at a significantly lower price in their advertisements (I offer the latter instance as evidence that the Seller's business is actively engaged in unethical (illegal?--is this not the definition of "bait and switch?") sales), I can only ask that the Revdex.com, who no doubt understand the laws involved and has far more experience with these types of business practices than I do, please look at the evidence made available (again, I'm happy to share any other specific information requested and cooperate in any way that I can to better describe the situation.)Thank you
Sincerely,
*** ***

What the customer received was a beautiful animal that was healthy and feeding for weeks in a row voluntarily at our facility.We have been in the reptile field for years and never before has a healthy CB Emerald Tree Boa perished in care in a dayperiodHowever, the customer is fully aware of
our hour health guarantee and the snake died outside of this warranty periodby the customer's own admissionHere is the policy linked on every page of our website for live animals... ***In addition, here is a copy of the email sent to us indicating how wonderful the animal is...> -----Original Message-----> From: "*** ***" > Sent: Friday, September *, 10:55am> To: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply" *** >> *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***> > *** *** *** *** ** ***
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* ***We never made claim that it was born in our facility and have the string of emails between Matthew and us to prove that.We clearly indicated it was captive born here in the United States, not in our facility.We used extensive care in trying to assist the customer by providing a $refund or when we get another one into provide at a cost of $which is BELOW our actual costThe animal died outside of warranty and we really tried tohelp him but he refused all offersThe customer is due no refund as per the agreed upon terms of live animal purchasesfrom us but truly we are baffled at how a healthy snake like this died inside of days

Revdex.com:
I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID# [redacted], and have determined that my complaint has NOT been resolved because:Contrary to the Seller's claim that no mentionwas made of the snake being born at the Seller'sfacility, I have attached thefollowing screenshots of the sales page from theseller’s website taken bothbefore and after the sale, which clearly andunambiguously state that theEmerald Tree Boas sold by Big Apple are"Born A Our Facility."  While I believe that this alone substantiates myclaim that the origin of the animal wasmisrepresented (I explained why this isso important in my initial complaint), I alsoreceived what I took, and I believe anyreasonable individual would take, as e-mailconfirmation of this fact from theSales department.In hindsight, prompted by comments made today byMr. S[redacted] in a private e-mail, I suspect that the words used by the salesdepartment in their correspondences were carefully chosen so that takenout-of-context they would seem ambiguous (which leads me to believethat the Mr. S[redacted] is actively engaged indefrauding customers on aregular basis).You will notice in the following examples ofcommunication between myself and the Big Apple Sales Team that I often had toask the samequestion repeatedly to get a response, andbecause of the frequent brevity ofthe e-mails by the Sales team, I took their lackof specificity as their beingoverly busy rather than intentionally deceptive.There can be no question based on my responses tothe sales team that although I asked for confirmation, I understood the BigApple website description as genuine and that I took the Sales team'sresponses, however equivocal they may now seem, as supporting, notcontradicting, the claims of the website.Below I have cut and paste the severalconversations between myself and the sales team.For instance, Please find my message and Andy’sresponse concerning my being placed on thewaiting list for the snakes:-----Original Message-----From: [redacted]"<[redacted]>Sent: Friday, July **, 2015 7:26amTo: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply"<[redacted]>Subject: Re: CBB Emerald Tree Boa Hi Gina, Yes! Please do put me on the waitinglist if it will be only a couple of weeks.So I take this to mean that your female(s) iscurrently gravid and is due to deliver soon?Or has she already deliveredand you are waiting to ship the young? Will the price still be $479.95?  [redacted] On Jul **, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Sales - Big ApplePet Supply <[redacted]>wrote: [redacted]
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AndyPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted]  Besides implying that the advertised price wouldbe honored, which it was NOT (despite the add forthe lower price continuing torun up to and beyond the day of sale—please seethe other two attachments for thelower advertised price) I took Andy’sconfirmation of “[redacted]
[redacted]” to mean that they had a Female Boa attheir facility actively breeding and ready todeliver young, as the term “active breeder” isused far more often to describeactively breeding animals (sometimesof both sexes, but most often of breedingfemales) than it is the humans who husbandthe breeding.  However, in hindsight, I suspect that potentiallyambiguous language was specifically chosen by theSales team, knowing that Iwould read it as referring to animals in theirfacility (given the descriptionof the website) while an outside observer mightbelieve that they werereferring to a human individual not related tothe facility.  Again, I now suspect that Mr. S[redacted] hascoordinated ambiguous and equivocal talking points for his sales team tocomplicate matters just such as this.Of course, this statement, coupled with the factthat the website explicitly states that theanimals were born at the Seller’s facilitywould lead any reasonable individual tounderstand that the Baby Boas areindeed produced at the seller’s facility. As further evidence, the Sales person Ginaoffered the following statement prior to the abovemessage (again, implying, in the contextof the description on the website, that theanimals were born at their facility):On Jul **, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Sales - Big ApplePet Supply <[redacted]>wrote:[redacted]
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 GinaPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted] Once again, why would I think that "our lastbrood" would mean anything other than animals that Big Apple was breadingat their facility, especially given the website's explicit confirmation of thisfact. Additionally, when I wrote to inquire severalweeks later about the status of the broodlings, I wastold:  On Aug **, 2015, at 11:03 AM, Sales - Big ApplePet Supply <[redacted]>wrote:
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[redacted]   GinaPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted] To which I replied: -----Original Message-----From: [redacted]"<[redacted]>Sent: Monday, August **, 2015 4:27pmTo: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply"<[redacted]>Subject: Re: WAITING LIST: Re: CBB Emerald TreeBoaHi Gina,Just to make sure that I understood you, theEmerald Tree Boas haven’t been born yet, but youare still expecting them?Do you have any idea when?Thanks![redacted]  Which received the following reply from Gina:On Aug **, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Sales - Big ApplePet Supply <[redacted]>wrote:Correct.  We'll be in touch ASAP. Thanks,  GinaPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted] In the context of the statements already madeand with the explicit description on the website, I understood all ofthese statements to mean that their Boas were indeedbeing born at their facility.  On the day of the sale the following interactionstook place: On Sep *, 2015, at 11:04 AM, Sales - Big ApplePet Supply <[redacted]>wrote:[redacted] 
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[redacted] AndyPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted]I became concerned at the fact that theadvertised price was not being honored as it had been suggested that it would be, so I asked for furtherclarification:  -----Original Message-----From: "[redacted]"<[redacted]>Sent: Thursday, September *, 2015 11:09amTo: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply"<[redacted]>Subject: Re: WAITING LIST: Re: CBB Emerald TreeBoa Hi Andy, I guess that’s fine.  Though please note that yourKingsnake.com classifieds ADD, repostedas late as this morning, still says that they aregoing for $479.99,including free over-night shipping.Just to confirm, these are all animals CaptiveBred at your Facility here in the USA? If that is still the case, then yes, please do goahead and send the paypal invoice.With regards to my inquiry about sexing andseeing pics of the individual animals—is thatstill possible? Thanks![redacted] Andy in turn responded with: [redacted]
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Thanks!  AndyPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted]  And I followed up with:  -----Original Message-----From: [redacted]"<[redacted]>Sent: Thursday, September *, 2015 11:18amTo: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply"<[redacted]>Subject: Re: WAITING LIST: Re: CBB Emerald TreeBoaHi Andy,"They are way off, unfortunately." I assume this is in reference to the pricing onyour add?Again, just to confirm, these are all animalsCaptive Bred and Born at your Facilityhere in the USA?With regards to my inquiry about sexing andseeing pics of the individual animals—is thatstill possible?Please confirm and I will place my order!Thanks![redacted]Gina later responded:  On Sep *, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Sales - BigApple Pet Supply <[redacted]> wrote:
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[redacted] GinaPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted] Again, in hindsight, I can see that the salesteam used delayed and incomplete responses (over two sales associates) to makeme believe that their non-contradictory responses supported the information onthe website, coupled with the fact that I had already invested in and set upall of the equipment to care for the snake, in addition to pressure to orderthe animal for next day delivery (the last opportunity for delivery during thatweek). While Mr. S[redacted] iscorrect that his sales team never specifically repeatedthe phrase “born at ourfacility,” as listed on the sales page, inconfirming what was already explicitly stated on thewebsite, the context of their statements wasobviously always intended to support the illusionthat the website and mystated understanding of their comments werecorrect while obfuscating the factthat they were equivocating regarding thespecific origins of the animal (whichI took as the brevity of busy sales associates).Just to be clear, I do not dispute that theanimal appeared healthy upon arrival or that I was excited to receive thesnake (not at all unusual even for a animal with a hidden illness). Nordo I challenge that the snake died 24 hours pastthe Seller’s 3-day health guarantee (over a holiday weekendmind you), however, the Seller DID misrepresentthe origin of the animal on hiswebsite on which the sale was made and his salesdepartment at the very leastnever made an effort to correct what wasobviously my understanding of the animal’sorigin (based on the description on the website)and actively used language to support that (mis)perception, even if thelanguage chosen was ambiguous out-of-context.As already explained, buying an animal directlyfrom the one who has bred the animal is always safer than buying second handprecisely because health and dietary records (not to mention genetic origins)are available as soon as the animal is born. These facts, coupledwith the fact Big Apple failed to honor itsadvertised price for the snake, asdemonstrated by adds continuing to run onKingsnake.com to this day, lead me tosuspect that Mr. S[redacted] is knowingly deceivingcustomers on a number of levels.  Had it not been for anearly 16-year long relationship with Big Apple(primarily for pet food andhusbandry equipment) and a natural tendency tooffer others the benefit of thedoubt, I might have found the reticence of hissales team suspicious prior tothe sale, but I took the website description asaccurate and the sales team'sstatements as confirmation of this fact. It seems Mr. S[redacted] was hoping that he would belet off the hook due to the subtlety of his deception and consistentinconsistency, which took advantage of my patient and trusting nature. The fact remains, Mr. S[redacted] explicitly contradictsthe description made on the website (not to mention statements made by Gina thesales associate posted above) when he said:[redacted]
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[redacted]." Please note that I have attempted to cutand paste all of the most salient elements of theelectronic conversations betweenmyself and the Big Apple Sales team.Should the reviewer of this complaint wish toreview the entire chain ofmessages, please provide an e-mail address towhich to send the e-mailchain and I will be happy to forward all of thee-mails for review.Again, thank you for your consideration andplease let me know if there is anything further that I can provide by way of supportof my claim or if any of the four attached images failed to go through. 
Sincerely,
[redacted]

This is quite simple, while the customer wishes to go on and on the proof is within our email exchange that we very clearlyindicated that this was a captive born in the United States and not at our facility animal. I'm not sure what this has todo with anything since this is was beautiful captive bred animal that was healthy and fed voluntarily for 3 weeks in a rowat our facility before it was put up for sale. We have sent prior his email of how happy he was with the quality when the animal arrived. Once again, I'll reiterate he was past the warranty period by his own admission and we went aboveand beyond to offer him either a refund or below cost when we get another one. He refused every offer I presented andat this time we will conclude responding further. There is clearly no way to work reasonably with the customer.Please note below the exchange clearly indicating this was a U.S. Captive Born Animal... -----Original Message-----> From: "[redacted]" <s[redacted] <[redacted]>>>> Sent: Thursday, September *, 2015 3:30pm> To: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply" <[redacted]> Subject: Re: WAITING LIST: Re: CBB Emerald Tree Boa> > [redacted]
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[redacted]> > On Sep *, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply <[redacted]>> wrote:> No problem, Matthew.> > I will send pix in a separate email.> > Here is the reply from our Reptile Manager:> > "The baby appears male but I cannot guarantee it. It is a US captive born baby"> > Take a look at the pix and let us know. If you are interested, we'll try to get it out today.> > Thanks,> > > > Gina> Pet Care Consultant> Big Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted]> > Visit us at Big Apple Pet Supply <[redacted]>>> Like us on Facebook <[redacted]> Follow us on Twitter <[redacted]> Watch us on YouTube [redacted]> > Big Apple Pet Supply Now Offers> FREE SHIPPING & LOW PRICE GUARANTEE!!!> > <low_price_button.JPG> <[redacted] <[redacted]>> > Big Apple Pet Supply BEATS the Competition's Price by a Full 5%!> Click on the Low Price Guarantee Banner Located on all our Product Pages on our Website.> > > > Big Apple is a registered Trademark of Big Apple Pet Supply, Inc., all rights reserved.> > NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information.> Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited and may be unlawful.> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.>

Review: On 2/*/2013 I made a large order from this business that had included a 100 watt Sunforce Mercury Vapor Bulb (their item number [redacted]). The order number of this large order was [redacted]. When I received and opened the bulb, It said it came with a 6 month warranty against manufacturer's defects. On June **, 2013, the bulb failed to turn on. The bulb was in its fixture which was mounted on the stand and it was never dropped nor subject to any damage.

I promptly called Big Apple Herp to arrange a replacement under the warranty and was told that I had to ship the bulb back out of my own pocket (which is reasonable) and once they received it, it had to be tested. Once tested and found to be a manufacturer defect, I would then have to pay for a prorated replacement plus shipping. To put that into perspective, I paid $29.95 and met a free shipping amount so the bulb cost me exactly $29.95. Under this "warranty," I would have to pay to ship it back ($5-$8) plus the prorated amount plus shipping which was conveniently exactly $29.95. I would essentially be paying for 2 bulbs at full cost, one defective and one good one. This entire process was to take an excruciating 2-3 weeks according to their customer service representative.

This leads me to believe that they are not honoring their warranty and are simply making me pay for a replacement at full price. The RMA number issued to me is [redacted]. I have not shipped them the defective bulb.Desired Settlement: I would either prefer a replacement shipped to me at my current address at no cost or a full $29.95 refund to my Paypal account (my credit card number and physical address has since changed).

If Big Apple Herp wants the defective bulb back, they can pay the shipping costs to get it back out of their own pocket.

Consumer

Response:

At this time, I have not been contacted by Big Apple Herpetological regarding complaint ID [redacted].

Sincerely,

Review: I purchased a Baby Emerald Tree Boa (snake) for $539.99 on the Seller's Website ([redacted]) on the afternoon of Thursday, September [redacted], 2015 in response to an e-mail from the Seller to my having been placed on the waiting list for an Emerald Tree Boa Captive Born Baby since July [redacted], 2015 (I had also made numerous additional inquiries since being placed on the list, as I had originally been told that the wait would be closer to a couple of weeks).

The snake was advertised and confirmed by the Sales associate as being Bred and Born at the Seller's (Big Apple Herp's) USA facility with a full health guarantee. I was insistent on confirming this fact with the sales associate on numerous occasions, and having dealt with the company for nearly 16-years (though never for live animals), I trusted that the website description and the sales associate's confirmation were sufficient reasons to believe that the animal's origin at the Big Apple Facility was genuine.

Four days after the snake's safe arrival on Friday, September [redacted], the snake was found dead in its enclosure in the afternoon of Tuesday, September [redacted].

I immediately contacted Big Apple via e-mail with a description of what happened, the snake's care up until that point, and photos of the deceased animal. I was told by the sales associate that the situation would be remedied, only to later receive a message that their solution was to offer me another snake, when one became available, at a reduced price ($270).

Needless to say, I was shocked that after being a customer for 16 years and having demonstrated nothing but earnest concern over the wellbeing of the animal, both prior to the sale and afterwards, that I would be met with such a response.

I've been keeping reptiles and purchasing them interstate for nearly 20 years and I have NEVER had anything like this happen. I clearly demonstrated to Big Apple that I had established the proper care and enclosure for the animal over a month before the snake arrived, as well as having top of the line husbandry equipment to monitor the conditions of the enclosure, so that I can be certain that the problem had to have started with the Seller (not to mention the fact that there are very few species of reptile that can go from 100% healthy to dead in 4-days even under suboptimal conditions).

After an extended dialogue via e-mail with the Company CEO, Steven S[redacted], I came to discover that the animal had NOT been captive bred at Big Apple's Facility as advertised on their website and confirmed by the sales associate, and no evidence was offered that the animal had been captive bred in the USA at all.

There is considerable difference in health expectations when buying an animal directly from the one who has bred the animal (so that the animal's entire health and dietary history is known) and one that is being sold second-hand (where such information may be unavailable). There is perhaps an even bigger difference between an animal that is captive bred and born in the USA and those born outside of the US (usually at farms that house already pregnant wild caught animals), and then of course between a captive bred animal and a wild caught one.

I had been under the impression, both because it was stated explicitly on the website and by the sales associate, that this animal was bred at the Seller's US facility.

Additionally, the animal had been advertised on [redacted], a popular classifieds site for live reptiles, as being sold at $479.99 (including overnight shipping). When I was put on the waiting list, I was told by the sales associate that this price would be honored. When I was contacted about buying the snake on the [redacted], I was told that the price had gone up and that they would not honor the advertised price, despite the add having been renewed that very morning (and continued to be renewed and run for a week afterwards). Having already waited two months for the snakes to be born and having had the entire enclosure set up for over a month, I reluctantly accepted the increased price.

Following the death of the snake and an extensive e-mail conversation with Mr. S[redacted], he ultimately offered me a partial refund of $150 OR the opportunity to purchase a new animal, when it becomes available, for $250. He offered absolutely no explanation for the misleading advertising, either with regard to the animal's origins or the price at which the animal was sold.

I have documentation of everything described above, including the entire e-mail chain between myself, the Big Apple Sales associates, and Mr. S[redacted], as well as time-stamped screen-shots of the Big Apple Website description of the snake as Captive Bred at the Seller's US Facility prior to sale, and the [redacted] Big Apple advertisement with the original advertised price.

I offered Mr. S[redacted] every opportunity to explain the inconsistencies in the sale of the animal as well as every reason to believe that I had provided the very best care for the snake. I also tried to remain open minded to the possibility that this was an honest mistake on the part of his company that resulted in an unfortunate death of an animal, but Mr. S[redacted]'s attitude about his company's sales practices as well as his refusal to take responsibility or even acknowledge any wrongdoing on his part, let alone to make proper restitution for the falsely advertised animal, leads me to believe that he actively operates in an unethical, and possibly illegal manner. I am thus very concerned about the wellbeing of the animals that he sells and future customers who may be mislead in a similar manner.Desired Settlement: I would like not only a full refund of the $539.99 that I paid for the snake, but also a further investigation into the advertising and sales practices of Big Apple to ensure that other animals and customers are not put in a similar situation.

Obviously, if these practices are found to have been ongoing and illegal I would hope that the appropriate penalties would be levied against the company and efforts made to ensure that animal health is being safeguarded.

Business

Response:

What the customer received was a beautiful animal that was healthy and feeding for 3 weeks in a row voluntarily at our facility.We have been in the reptile field for 22 years and never before has a healthy CB Emerald Tree Boa perished in care in a 4 dayperiod. However, the customer is fully aware of our 72 hour health guarantee and the snake died outside of this warranty periodby the customer's own admission. Here is the policy linked on every page of our website for live animals... [redacted]In addition, here is a copy of the email sent to us indicating how wonderful the animal is...> -----Original Message-----> From: "[redacted]" <s[redacted] <[redacted]>>> Sent: Friday, September *, 2015 10:55am> To: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply" [redacted] <[redacted]>>> [redacted]> > [redacted]We never made claim that it was born in our facility and have the string of emails between Matthew and us to prove that.We clearly indicated it was captive born here in the United States, not in our facility.We used extensive care in trying to assist the customer by providing a $150 refund or when we get another one into provide at a cost of $250 which is BELOW our actual cost. The animal died outside of warranty and we really tried tohelp him but he refused all offers. The customer is due no refund as per the agreed upon terms of live animal purchasesfrom us but truly we are baffled at how a healthy snake like this died inside of 4 days.

Consumer

Response:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID# [redacted], and have determined that my complaint has NOT been resolved because:Contrary to the Seller's claim that no mentionwas made of the snake being born at the Seller'sfacility, I have attached thefollowing screenshots of the sales page from theseller’s website taken bothbefore and after the sale, which clearly andunambiguously state that theEmerald Tree Boas sold by Big Apple are"Born A Our Facility." While I believe that this alone substantiates myclaim that the origin of the animal wasmisrepresented (I explained why this isso important in my initial complaint), I alsoreceived what I took, and I believe anyreasonable individual would take, as e-mailconfirmation of this fact from theSales department.In hindsight, prompted by comments made today byMr. S[redacted] in a private e-mail, I suspect that the words used by the salesdepartment in their correspondences were carefully chosen so that takenout-of-context they would seem ambiguous (which leads me to believethat the Mr. S[redacted] is actively engaged indefrauding customers on aregular basis).You will notice in the following examples ofcommunication between myself and the Big Apple Sales Team that I often had toask the samequestion repeatedly to get a response, andbecause of the frequent brevity ofthe e-mails by the Sales team, I took their lackof specificity as their beingoverly busy rather than intentionally deceptive.There can be no question based on my responses tothe sales team that although I asked for confirmation, I understood the BigApple website description as genuine and that I took the Sales team'sresponses, however equivocal they may now seem, as supporting, notcontradicting, the claims of the website.Below I have cut and paste the severalconversations between myself and the sales team.For instance, Please find my message and Andy’sresponse concerning my being placed on thewaiting list for the snakes:-----Original Message-----From: [redacted]"<[redacted]>Sent: Friday, July **, 2015 7:26amTo: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply"<[redacted]>Subject: Re: CBB Emerald Tree Boa Hi Gina, Yes! Please do put me on the waitinglist if it will be only a couple of weeks.So I take this to mean that your female(s) iscurrently gravid and is due to deliver soon?Or has she already deliveredand you are waiting to ship the young? Will the price still be $479.95? [redacted] On Jul **, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Sales - Big ApplePet Supply <[redacted]>wrote: [redacted]

AndyPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted] Besides implying that the advertised price wouldbe honored, which it was NOT (despite the add forthe lower price continuing torun up to and beyond the day of sale—please seethe other two attachments for thelower advertised price) I took Andy’sconfirmation of “[redacted]” to mean that they had a Female Boa attheir facility actively breeding and ready todeliver young, as the term “active breeder” isused far more often to describeactively breeding animals (sometimesof both sexes, but most often of breedingfemales) than it is the humans who husbandthe breeding. However, in hindsight, I suspect that potentiallyambiguous language was specifically chosen by theSales team, knowing that Iwould read it as referring to animals in theirfacility (given the descriptionof the website) while an outside observer mightbelieve that they werereferring to a human individual not related tothe facility. Again, I now suspect that Mr. S[redacted] hascoordinated ambiguous and equivocal talking points for his sales team tocomplicate matters just such as this.Of course, this statement, coupled with the factthat the website explicitly states that theanimals were born at the Seller’s facilitywould lead any reasonable individual tounderstand that the Baby Boas areindeed produced at the seller’s facility. As further evidence, the Sales person Ginaoffered the following statement prior to the abovemessage (again, implying, in the contextof the description on the website, that theanimals were born at their facility):On Jul **, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Sales - Big ApplePet Supply <[redacted]>wrote:[redacted]

GinaPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted] Once again, why would I think that "our lastbrood" would mean anything other than animals that Big Apple was breadingat their facility, especially given the website's explicit confirmation of thisfact. Additionally, when I wrote to inquire severalweeks later about the status of the broodlings, I wastold: On Aug **, 2015, at 11:03 AM, Sales - Big ApplePet Supply <[redacted]>wrote:

[redacted] GinaPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted] To which I replied: -----Original Message-----From: [redacted]"<[redacted]>Sent: Monday, August **, 2015 4:27pmTo: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply"<[redacted]>Subject: Re: WAITING LIST: Re: CBB Emerald TreeBoaHi Gina,Just to make sure that I understood you, theEmerald Tree Boas haven’t been born yet, but youare still expecting them?Do you have any idea when?Thanks![redacted] Which received the following reply from Gina:On Aug **, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Sales - Big ApplePet Supply <[redacted]>wrote:Correct. We'll be in touch ASAP. Thanks, GinaPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted] In the context of the statements already madeand with the explicit description on the website, I understood all ofthese statements to mean that their Boas were indeedbeing born at their facility. On the day of the sale the following interactionstook place: On Sep *, 2015, at 11:04 AM, Sales - Big ApplePet Supply <[redacted]>wrote:[redacted] AndyPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted]I became concerned at the fact that theadvertised price was not being honored as it had been suggested that it would be, so I asked for furtherclarification: -----Original Message-----From: "[redacted]"<[redacted]>Sent: Thursday, September *, 2015 11:09amTo: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply"<[redacted]>Subject: Re: WAITING LIST: Re: CBB Emerald TreeBoa Hi Andy, I guess that’s fine. Though please note that yourKingsnake.com classifieds ADD, repostedas late as this morning, still says that they aregoing for $479.99,including free over-night shipping.Just to confirm, these are all animals CaptiveBred at your Facility here in the USA? If that is still the case, then yes, please do goahead and send the paypal invoice.With regards to my inquiry about sexing andseeing pics of the individual animals—is thatstill possible? Thanks![redacted] Andy in turn responded with: [redacted]

Thanks! AndyPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted] And I followed up with: -----Original Message-----From: [redacted]"<[redacted]>Sent: Thursday, September *, 2015 11:18amTo: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply"<[redacted]>Subject: Re: WAITING LIST: Re: CBB Emerald TreeBoaHi Andy,"They are way off, unfortunately." I assume this is in reference to the pricing onyour add?Again, just to confirm, these are all animalsCaptive Bred and Born at your Facilityhere in the USA?With regards to my inquiry about sexing andseeing pics of the individual animals—is thatstill possible?Please confirm and I will place my order!Thanks![redacted]Gina later responded: On Sep *, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Sales - BigApple Pet Supply <[redacted]> wrote:

[redacted] GinaPet Care ConsultantBig Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted] Again, in hindsight, I can see that the salesteam used delayed and incomplete responses (over two sales associates) to makeme believe that their non-contradictory responses supported the information onthe website, coupled with the fact that I had already invested in and set upall of the equipment to care for the snake, in addition to pressure to orderthe animal for next day delivery (the last opportunity for delivery during thatweek). While Mr. S[redacted] iscorrect that his sales team never specifically repeatedthe phrase “born at ourfacility,” as listed on the sales page, inconfirming what was already explicitly stated on thewebsite, the context of their statements wasobviously always intended to support the illusionthat the website and mystated understanding of their comments werecorrect while obfuscating the factthat they were equivocating regarding thespecific origins of the animal (whichI took as the brevity of busy sales associates).Just to be clear, I do not dispute that theanimal appeared healthy upon arrival or that I was excited to receive thesnake (not at all unusual even for a animal with a hidden illness). Nordo I challenge that the snake died 24 hours pastthe Seller’s 3-day health guarantee (over a holiday weekendmind you), however, the Seller DID misrepresentthe origin of the animal on hiswebsite on which the sale was made and his salesdepartment at the very leastnever made an effort to correct what wasobviously my understanding of the animal’sorigin (based on the description on the website)and actively used language to support that (mis)perception, even if thelanguage chosen was ambiguous out-of-context.As already explained, buying an animal directlyfrom the one who has bred the animal is always safer than buying second handprecisely because health and dietary records (not to mention genetic origins)are available as soon as the animal is born. These facts, coupledwith the fact Big Apple failed to honor itsadvertised price for the snake, asdemonstrated by adds continuing to run onKingsnake.com to this day, lead me tosuspect that Mr. S[redacted] is knowingly deceivingcustomers on a number of levels. Had it not been for anearly 16-year long relationship with Big Apple(primarily for pet food andhusbandry equipment) and a natural tendency tooffer others the benefit of thedoubt, I might have found the reticence of hissales team suspicious prior tothe sale, but I took the website description asaccurate and the sales team'sstatements as confirmation of this fact. It seems Mr. S[redacted] was hoping that he would belet off the hook due to the subtlety of his deception and consistentinconsistency, which took advantage of my patient and trusting nature. The fact remains, Mr. S[redacted] explicitly contradictsthe description made on the website (not to mention statements made by Gina thesales associate posted above) when he said:[redacted]." Please note that I have attempted to cutand paste all of the most salient elements of theelectronic conversations betweenmyself and the Big Apple Sales team.Should the reviewer of this complaint wish toreview the entire chain ofmessages, please provide an e-mail address towhich to send the e-mailchain and I will be happy to forward all of thee-mails for review.Again, thank you for your consideration andplease let me know if there is anything further that I can provide by way of supportof my claim or if any of the four attached images failed to go through.

Sincerely,

Business

Response:

This is quite simple, while the customer wishes to go on and on the proof is within our email exchange that we very clearlyindicated that this was a captive born in the United States and not at our facility animal. I'm not sure what this has todo with anything since this is was beautiful captive bred animal that was healthy and fed voluntarily for 3 weeks in a rowat our facility before it was put up for sale. We have sent prior his email of how happy he was with the quality when the animal arrived. Once again, I'll reiterate he was past the warranty period by his own admission and we went aboveand beyond to offer him either a refund or below cost when we get another one. He refused every offer I presented andat this time we will conclude responding further. There is clearly no way to work reasonably with the customer.Please note below the exchange clearly indicating this was a U.S. Captive Born Animal... -----Original Message-----> From: "[redacted]" <s[redacted] <[redacted]>>>> Sent: Thursday, September *, 2015 3:30pm> To: "Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply" <[redacted]> Subject: Re: WAITING LIST: Re: CBB Emerald Tree Boa> > [redacted]> > On Sep *, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Sales - Big Apple Pet Supply <[redacted]>> wrote:> No problem, Matthew.> > I will send pix in a separate email.> > Here is the reply from our Reptile Manager:> > "The baby appears male but I cannot guarantee it. It is a US captive born baby"> > Take a look at the pix and let us know. If you are interested, we'll try to get it out today.> > Thanks,> > > > Gina> Pet Care Consultant> Big Apple Pet Supply, Inc.[redacted]> > Visit us at Big Apple Pet Supply <[redacted]>>> Like us on Facebook <[redacted]> Follow us on Twitter <[redacted]> Watch us on YouTube [redacted]> > Big Apple Pet Supply Now Offers> FREE SHIPPING & LOW PRICE GUARANTEE!!!> > <low_price_button.JPG> <[redacted] <[redacted]>> > Big Apple Pet Supply BEATS the Competition's Price by a Full 5%!> Click on the Low Price Guarantee Banner Located on all our Product Pages on our Website.> > > > Big Apple is a registered Trademark of Big Apple Pet Supply, Inc., all rights reserved.> > NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information.> Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited and may be unlawful.> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.>

Consumer

Response:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID# [redacted], and have determined that my complaint has NOT been resolved because:

Contrary to the opening line of Mr. S[redacted]'* last message, his sales department NEVER contradicted the website description that the snake was Born at the Seller's US Facility. In my mind, it was never either/or, but always USA Captive Born AT THE SELLER'S FACILITY, which the sales team clearly knew both because I worded my inquiry this way several times AND because the seller's website unambiguously describes it in this way. The bottom line is that the animal sold was NOT, by Mr. S[redacted] own admission AFTER THE FACT, Captive Bred at Big Apple's US Facility as it is clearly and unambiguously indicated on their website from which the purchase was made. This is important because Mr. S[redacted] is essentially selling animals under the false pretense of having full knowledge of the animal's history and health from its BIRTH, which in this case was the difference between life and death.Yes, the snake was a beautiful animal, I was very excited to receive it (after all, I had waited two months for its birth), and for the four days that it was in my possession, it showed no obvious signs of ill health--which makes the situation all the more upsetting; but the fact remains that it died in 4-days under ideal conditions and maintained with top of the line equipment. The enclosure had been set-up and monitored for over a month prior to its arrival and in every email shared with the sales team it was abundantly clear that my concern was always with the health and wellbeing of the animal.I do not know with absolutely specificity why the animal died, but clearly it had (hidden) health issues PRIOR to its sale as evidenced by its death 4-days after its arrival (I can think of few if any reptile species that would die in 4-days even in suboptimal conditions if it started 100% healthy).Mr. S[redacted] and/or his employees very well may not have been aware of the animal's ill health prior to sale, BECAUSE contrary to his website description, the animal was NOT born at his US facility. Any number of health issues, either congenital or internal may have been at play, and neither I as a buyer or even he as a second hand seller would have this information. This is the crux of my complaint. Had the animal been born at his facility as it was clearly stated on the website, and to my understanding confirmed by his sales associates, he would be in a much stronger position to guarantee the animal's health. As it is, he has offered no information about the origins of the animal so that I cannot even be sure that it is a USA born animal, and given that Mr. S[redacted] has been so deceptive and uncooperative, I have no reason to "take his word of it."As the e-mails clearly show, my interest in the animal being US captive bred was always with the understanding that it was born AT THE SELLER'S FACILITY, as promised on the website from which the sale was made. When the sales team confirmed it was US bred, obviously I took that to mean that it was bred at their facility as listed on the site. The sales team had to know this given the number of times I brought the issue up, though in hindsight I see that the sales team was intentionally vague and incomplete in their answers, being consistently inconsistent, but at the time I took this only to be the curtness common of a busy sales department. The fact is, if I hadn't been extra concerned about the health of the animal AND concerned that the advertised price had not been honored, I might not have even thought to confirm the truth of the website description at all. After all, I'd done business with Big Apple Herp for almost 16 years, the thought that they were actively deceiving me did not cross my mind.Mr. S[redacted] is essentially trying to benefit from the fact that his sales team is good at equivocating (which I highly doubt is coincidental), so that they never fully confirmed the website description, but never contradicted it either.The bottom line is that the website, from which the purchase was made makes an explicit statement regarding the animal's origins, origins that had a direct impact on the animal's health, and ultimately it's survival. Mr. S[redacted], having been in the reptile industry as long as I have been keeping them, knows this is true. He knows the value of purchasing animals directly from those who breed them, that's why his website states that they are bred at the facility--it adds immediate value to the animal. Otherwise, why listed them as "Born at our Facility" at all?The sales associate Gina's comments regarding the beauty of "our last brood" were clearly meant to imply that the animals were born at the Seller's facility, and openly contradicts Mr. S[redacted] claim that they do not produce the animals and are unable to acquire many. Given the website description, why would I believe that the words "our brood" would mean anything other than "several animals that we produced"?The sales team clearly used deceptive tactics, some subtle and some not so subtle (and perhaps illegal), to manipulate my trusting concern. Contrary to Mr. S[redacted] assertion that I have been unwilling to be reasonable, I have made every effort to understand Mr. S[redacted] position on this issue (I would be happy to share our extensive back and forth via e-mail). The fact that Mr. S[redacted] refuses to even acknowledge, let alone address, the inconsistencies in the website description, advertisement, his sales associates and finally his words regarding this animal's origins and price, and his offers of minimal compensation, baffle the mind given the circumstances.The entire series of events has led me to believe that Mr. S[redacted] is actively engaged in activities that are meant to defraud customers, and that clearly put animals at risk, and more than anything, I hope that the outcome of this dispute is that more careful scrutiny will be paid to the business practices of Big Apple Pet Supplies. As the Seller has offered no further argument or evidence to support his case and remains obstinate in his refusal to acknowledge either the fact that the snake was clearly and unambiguously advertised as having been "Born at our facility" on the website from which the purchase was made, and at a significantly lower price in their advertisements (I offer the latter instance as evidence that the Seller's business is actively engaged in unethical (illegal?--is this not the definition of "bait and switch?") sales), I can only ask that the Revdex.com, who no doubt understand the laws involved and has far more experience with these types of business practices than I do, please look at the evidence made available (again, I'm happy to share any other specific information requested and cooperate in any way that I can to better describe the situation.)Thank you.

Sincerely,