Colorado Component Rebuilders, LLC

Initial Business Response / [redacted] (1000, 6, 2015/05/14) */ This is a copy of the email sent to Skip on 5/He has not replied to mePlease note that he DID NOT CONTACT US FOR MONTHS AFTER HE GOT THE ENGINE, YET SAYS IT WAS "BAD" FROM DAY [redacted] Apparently, you did not receive the email I sent last weekMaybe it disappeared into your spam folder or an internet black hole? Here's a copy: [redacted] I want you to know that we are not ignoring youI have looked over your notes from Eastside Subaru and from your emails and have been consulting with [redacted] and researching your issue First, the dealer states that they "must remove the heads to diagnose further"Second, they state "may be a valve sticking open at high temp"? It would be much more prone to stick while cold rather than after warmed upWe do business with many [redacted] dealers nationwide, and frankly, their way of diagnosing is "if A happens, replace thisIf B happens, replace this, and so on." They are not usually good diagnosticians because that is not how they are trainedI actually have a 2000+ FSM on this computer and it tells HOW to do something, but not WHYNothing about diagnostics except using a scan tool IF the engine itself was at fault, it would run poorly both hot and coldWhat we do is purely mechanicalA check engine light comes on because of electrical/electronic issues, not mechanicalAn engine may be near to throwing a rod or having a timing belt tensioner break, but will not throw a code until something sets off an electronic panic signal, because the ECU cannot read mechanicsIncidentally, of course there is an "imbalance"...you have misfires on opposite sides of the engine! Have you researched your problem online at all? If you [redacted] search [redacted] misfires when warm", literally page after page after page of search results will be returned, and all of them are electronic in nature, not mechanicalUnfortunately, there is not really any one clear cut resolution to be foundThis reminds me of the issues of the XXOutbacks with a manual transmission which ran perfectly, but always had a check engine light on if you went 65mph for over minutesYou could clear the code, and if you only drove under 50mph, the CEL would stay offGo 65mph, and there it was againNobody ever figured that one out eitherHowever, I believe your problems are fixable, but in the same veinThat is, baffling and complex I see that you have done a lot to try to fix the problem, but I think you should not have waited SIX months to contact us and ask for help and assume we would just send you another engineA different engine is just going to do the same thing until the problem(s) is found and correctedFurther, unless the engine is actually in the car, there is no way we could diagnose the issue if we got yours back here, because there would be no outside influences on itOut of the car, the engine is always "cold"We would also not be able to tell if dielectric grease was used on the connections when the engine was installed A couple of the things you replaced might have been culprits (e.g., MAP sensors, injectors and oxysensors) or at least contributory, but having a really good diagnostician looking at the problem would probably have saved you a lot of money and frustrationI would also add that the charcoal canister, gas cap and purge solenoid would be good places to look since they can also have a detrimental effect on how a car runs warm vscold I realize that Spanaway is not exactly close to you, but I highly recommend [redacted] Their phone number is XXX-XXX-XXXX [redacted] is the owner [redacted] is closer, but the last thing I heard, they were more into general repairsHowever, it seems that may be just what you need Regards, [redacted] " Again, please note that he has not replied to me since I sent this emailWe are awaiting his reply to proceed further Initial Consumer Rebuttal / [redacted] (3000, 8, 2015/05/22) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) Dear ***, The statement that this is CCR's second response and that the previous email must have gone to the spam folder or a black hole is very curiousThis and previous emails from CCR have been received without issueA check of my junk and trash folders did not find the missing response in question The diagnosis attached to the original complaint was from a trained mechanic certified by Subaru, the manufacturer of the engine in questionBased on the references in the response letter, may I assume CCR does not have similar credentials? That aside, engines are made of metal and metal expands when hotIt is very likely that a metal part slightly out of spec would cause more issues as it got hotter and more out of specSay for instance a valve that was sticking because it was slightly bentThis being said, the engine has thrown the misfire error when cold, but it is just more likely when warm Based on my first email, I am surprised by the suggestion to research the issue, as at the end of the response it acknowledges that I already haveIt was only after exhausting the information on the internet and my abilities that I took the car to the dealership to have a Subaru expert diagnose the issueOne of the issues that CCR's response failed to mention was that in addition to the misfire issue the engine is also out of balanceThis is definitely a mechanical problem and could easily be the root of both symptomsWhile the root cause of the misfire error can be argued, the imbalance cannot and is covered by the warranty that states "warrants to the original user this engine for months or 50,miles, whichever comes first, to be free of defects in materials and workmanship"Over time, an unbalanced engine will wear away the motor mounts and may also damage chassis weld joints As stated in CCR's response, CCR cannot diagnose a problem unless it is installed in the carThis implies that CCR did not perform a rotational/dyno test prior to shipping the engineThis says that an engine known to be defective was taken apart and rebuilt with the assumption that the only issue was a part replace with a rebuild kitIf there was no functional test, then I do not see how CCR can dispute the diagnosis of a trained and certified [redacted] mechanic that analyzed the engine while installed in the vehicle connected to a computer and test drivenAs to the recommendation that I take the car to a mechanic in Spanaway (miles away), that is not a certified [redacted] mechanic, I am not interested as I have already been down this path with a similar local [redacted] expert that directed me to take the car to the dealership where they have the equipment that only dealerships can affordI would be willing to take the car to another [redacted] dealership if CCR will pay for it, if the 2nd opinion finds there is a mechanical problem with the engine Regards, [redacted] Apparently, you did not receive the email I sent last weekMaybe it disappeared into your spam folder or an internet black hole? Here's a copy: [redacted] I want you to know that we are not ignoring youI have looked over your notes from Eastside Subaru and from your emails and have been consulting with [redacted] and researching your issue First, the dealer states that they "must remove the heads to diagnose further"Second, they state "may be a valve sticking open at high temp"? It would be much more prone to stick while cold rather than after warmed upWe do business with many Subaru dealers nationwide, and frankly, their way of diagnosing is "if A happens, replace thisIf B happens, replace this, and so on." They are not usually good diagnosticians because that is not how they are trainedI actually have a 2000+ FSM on this computer and it tells HOW to do something, but not WHYNothing about diagnostics except using a scan tool IF the engine itself was at fault, it would run poorly both hot and coldWhat we do is purely mechanicalA check engine light comes on because of electrical/electronic issues, not mechanicalAn engine may be near to throwing a rod or having a timing belt tensioner break, but will not throw a code until something sets off an electronic panic signal, because the ECU cannot read mechanicsIncidentally, of course there is an "imbalance"...you have misfires on opposite sides of the engine! Have you researched your problem online at all? If you [redacted] search [redacted] misfires when warm", literally page after page after page of search results will be returned, and all of them are electronic in nature, not mechanicalUnfortunately, there is not really any one clear cut resolution to be foundThis reminds me of the issues of the XXOutbacks with a manual transmission which ran perfectly, but always had a check engine light on if you went 65mph for over minutesYou could clear the code, and if you only drove under 50mph, the CEL would stay offGo 65mph, and there it was againNobody ever figured that one out eitherHowever, I believe your problems are fixable, but in the same veinThat is, baffling and complex I see that you have done a lot to try to fix the problem, but I think you should not have waited SIX months to contact us and ask for help and assume we would just send you another engineA different engine is just going to do the same thing until the problem(s) is found and correctedFurther, unless the engine is actually in the car, there is no way we could diagnose the issue if we got yours back here, because there would be no outside influences on itOut of the car, the engine is always "cold"We would also not be able to tell if dielectric grease was used on the connections when the engine was installed A couple of the things you replaced might have been culprits (e.g., MAP sensors, injectors and oxysensors) or at least contributory, but having a really good diagnostician looking at the problem would probably have saved you a lot of money and frustrationI would also add that the charcoal canister, gas cap and purge solenoid would be good places to look since they can also have a detrimental effect on how a car runs warm vscold I realize that Spanaway is not exactly close to you, but I highly recommend [redacted] Their phone number is XXX-XXX-XXXX [redacted] is the owner [redacted] is closer, but the last thing I heard, they were more into general repairsHowever, it seems that may be just what you need Regards, Skip Complaint Response Date bumped because: Holiday Final Consumer Response / [redacted] (4200, 12, 2015/06/15) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) The problems noted in the diagnostic report are two fold: P030x (misfire Error) and engine balance issueIt is pointless to debate the sticky valve diagnosis as this can only be verified by an engine disassemblyHowever, the engine vibration is not conjecture and can easily be verified by a second opinion which I will get when I have time and money as CCR will only pay half of the diagnostic fee if the engine is confirmed defectiveAn imbalance has nothing to do with compression, so I will only have the imbalance confirmed Final Business Response / [redacted] (4000, 14, 2015/06/17) */ Quote: The problems noted in the diagnostic report are two fold: P030x (misfire Error) and engine balance issueIt is pointless to debate the sticky valve diagnosis as this can only be verified by an engine disassemblyHowever, the engine vibration is not conjecture and can easily be verified by a second opinion which I will get when I have time and money as CCR will only pay half of the diagnostic fee if the engine is confirmed defectiveAn imbalance has nothing to do with compression, so I will only have the imbalance confirmed I now restate that, IF the diagnostics confirm that the engine itself is defective, WE WILL PAY FOR THE DIAGNOSTIC TEST! How much more clearly can this be stated? Yes, our warranty labor rate is $65/hr., more than any other rebuilder by the way, and I can usually arrange with any shop to honor that amountWe can be flexible on that Having only the imbalance confirmed, but not the reason for it, is not a true diagnosisThe imbalance is a SYMPTOM, NOT the problem itself While I agree with the comment about the "sticky valve", a compression test MUST be done to determine where the problem liesIF the compression test is good, no leak down test is necessary: if it is bad, the leak down will help pinpoint where the problem is I reiterate: to wait months before first contacting us, then to expect us to just throw another $4,engine at the car without determining the problem(s) is unreasonableTo go on public forums and complain about our company is egregious at best We are a small, family owned company not a large corporationWe will work with you, but that also requires that you work with us (read your warranty!)What I am asking is not unfair, nor is it arbitraryIf you want a new engine from us, plus the cost of installation, we require the simple testing shown above Regards, [redacted] Colorado Component Rebuilders, Inc

Initial Business Response /* (1000, 6, 2015/05/14) */
This is a copy of the email sent to Skip on 5/12. He has not replied to me. Please note that he DID NOT CONTACT US FOR 6 MONTHS AFTER HE GOT THE ENGINE, YET SAYS IT WAS "BAD" FROM DAY 1.
[redacted]

Apparently, you did not receive the email...

I sent last week. Maybe it disappeared into your spam folder or an internet black hole? Here's a copy:

[redacted]
I want you to know that we are not ignoring you. I have looked over your notes from Eastside Subaru and from your emails and have been consulting with [redacted] and researching your issue.

First, the dealer states that they "must remove the heads to diagnose further". Second, they state "may be a valve sticking open at high temp"? It would be much more prone to stick while cold rather than after warmed up. We do business with many [redacted] dealers nationwide, and frankly, their way of diagnosing is "if A happens, replace this. If B happens, replace this, and so on." They are not usually good diagnosticians because that is not how they are trained. I actually have a 2000+ FSM on this computer and it tells HOW to do something, but not WHY. Nothing about diagnostics except using a scan tool.

IF the engine itself was at fault, it would run poorly both hot and cold. What we do is purely mechanical. A check engine light comes on because of electrical/electronic issues, not mechanical. An engine may be near to throwing a rod or having a timing belt tensioner break, but will not throw a code until something sets off an electronic panic signal, because the ECU cannot read mechanics. Incidentally, of course there is an "imbalance"...you have misfires on opposite sides of the engine!

Have you researched your problem online at all? If you [redacted] search [redacted] misfires when warm", literally page after page after page of search results will be returned, and all of them are electronic in nature, not mechanical. Unfortunately, there is not really any one clear cut resolution to be found. This reminds me of the issues of the XXXX-XX Outbacks with a manual transmission which ran perfectly, but always had a check engine light on if you went 65mph for over 3 minutes. You could clear the code, and if you only drove under 50mph, the CEL would stay off. Go 65mph, and there it was again. Nobody ever figured that one out either. However, I believe your problems are fixable, but in the same vein. That is, baffling and complex.

I see that you have done a lot to try to fix the problem, but I think you should not have waited SIX months to contact us and ask for help and assume we would just send you another engine. A different engine is just going to do the same thing until the problem(s) is found and corrected. Further, unless the engine is actually in the car, there is no way we could diagnose the issue if we got yours back here, because there would be no outside influences on it. Out of the car, the engine is always "cold". We would also not be able to tell if dielectric grease was used on the connections when the engine was installed.

A couple of the things you replaced might have been culprits (e.g., MAP sensors, injectors and oxysensors) or at least contributory, but having a really good diagnostician looking at the problem would probably have saved you a lot of money and frustration. I would also add that the charcoal canister, gas cap and purge solenoid would be good places to look since they can also have a detrimental effect on how a car runs warm vs. cold.

I realize that Spanaway is not exactly close to you, but I highly recommend [redacted] Their phone number is XXX-XXX-XXXX. [redacted] is the owner. [redacted] is closer, but the last thing I heard, they were more into general repairs. However, it seems that may be just what you need.

Regards,

[redacted]"
Again, please note that he has not replied to me since I sent this email. We are awaiting his reply to proceed further.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 8, 2015/05/22) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
Dear [redacted],
The statement that this is CCR's second response and that the previous email must have gone to the spam folder or a black hole is very curious. This and previous emails from CCR have been received without issue. A check of my junk and trash folders did not find the missing response in question.
The diagnosis attached to the original complaint was from a trained mechanic certified by Subaru, the manufacturer of the engine in question. Based on the references in the response letter, may I assume CCR does not have similar credentials? That aside, engines are made of metal and metal expands when hot. It is very likely that a metal part slightly out of spec would cause more issues as it got hotter and more out of spec. Say for instance a valve that was sticking because it was slightly bent. This being said, the engine has thrown the misfire error when cold, but it is just more likely when warm.
Based on my first email, I am surprised by the suggestion to research the issue, as at the end of the response it acknowledges that I already have. It was only after exhausting the information on the internet and my abilities that I took the car to the dealership to have a Subaru expert diagnose the issue. One of the issues that CCR's response failed to mention was that in addition to the misfire issue the engine is also out of balance. This is definitely a mechanical problem and could easily be the root of both symptoms. While the root cause of the misfire error can be argued, the imbalance cannot and is covered by the warranty that states "warrants to the original user this engine for 36 months or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first, to be free of defects in materials and workmanship". Over time, an unbalanced engine will wear away the motor mounts and may also damage chassis weld joints.
As stated in CCR's response, CCR cannot diagnose a problem unless it is installed in the car. This implies that CCR did not perform a rotational/dyno test prior to shipping the engine. This says that an engine known to be defective was taken apart and rebuilt with the assumption that the only issue was a part replace with a rebuild kit. If there was no functional test, then I do not see how CCR can dispute the diagnosis of a trained and certified [redacted] mechanic that analyzed the engine while installed in the vehicle connected to a computer and test driven. As to the recommendation that I take the car to a mechanic in Spanaway (100 miles away), that is not a certified [redacted] mechanic, I am not interested as I have already been down this path with a similar local [redacted] expert that directed me to take the car to the dealership where they have the equipment that only dealerships can afford. I would be willing to take the car to another [redacted] dealership if CCR will pay for it, if the 2nd opinion finds there is a mechanical problem with the engine.
Regards,
[redacted]

Apparently, you did not receive the email I sent last week. Maybe it disappeared into your spam folder or an internet black hole? Here's a copy:

[redacted]
I want you to know that we are not ignoring you. I have looked over your notes from Eastside Subaru and from your emails and have been consulting with [redacted] and researching your issue.

First, the dealer states that they "must remove the heads to diagnose further". Second, they state "may be a valve sticking open at high temp"? It would be much more prone to stick while cold rather than after warmed up. We do business with many Subaru dealers nationwide, and frankly, their way of diagnosing is "if A happens, replace this. If B happens, replace this, and so on." They are not usually good diagnosticians because that is not how they are trained. I actually have a 2000+ FSM on this computer and it tells HOW to do something, but not WHY. Nothing about diagnostics except using a scan tool.

IF the engine itself was at fault, it would run poorly both hot and cold. What we do is purely mechanical. A check engine light comes on because of electrical/electronic issues, not mechanical. An engine may be near to throwing a rod or having a timing belt tensioner break, but will not throw a code until something sets off an electronic panic signal, because the ECU cannot read mechanics. Incidentally, of course there is an "imbalance"...you have misfires on opposite sides of the engine!

Have you researched your problem online at all? If you [redacted] search [redacted] misfires when warm", literally page after page after page of search results will be returned, and all of them are electronic in nature, not mechanical. Unfortunately, there is not really any one clear cut resolution to be found. This reminds me of the issues of the XXXX-XX Outbacks with a manual transmission which ran perfectly, but always had a check engine light on if you went 65mph for over 3 minutes. You could clear the code, and if you only drove under 50mph, the CEL would stay off. Go 65mph, and there it was again. Nobody ever figured that one out either. However, I believe your problems are fixable, but in the same vein. That is, baffling and complex.

I see that you have done a lot to try to fix the problem, but I think you should not have waited SIX months to contact us and ask for help and assume we would just send you another engine. A different engine is just going to do the same thing until the problem(s) is found and corrected. Further, unless the engine is actually in the car, there is no way we could diagnose the issue if we got yours back here, because there would be no outside influences on it. Out of the car, the engine is always "cold". We would also not be able to tell if dielectric grease was used on the connections when the engine was installed.

A couple of the things you replaced might have been culprits (e.g., MAP sensors, injectors and oxysensors) or at least contributory, but having a really good diagnostician looking at the problem would probably have saved you a lot of money and frustration. I would also add that the charcoal canister, gas cap and purge solenoid would be good places to look since they can also have a detrimental effect on how a car runs warm vs. cold.

I realize that Spanaway is not exactly close to you, but I highly recommend [redacted] Their phone number is XXX-XXX-XXXX. [redacted] is the owner. [redacted] is closer, but the last thing I heard, they were more into general repairs. However, it seems that may be just what you need.

Regards,
Skip
Complaint Response Date bumped because: Holiday
Final Consumer Response /* (4200, 12, 2015/06/15) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
The problems noted in the diagnostic report are two fold: P030x (misfire Error) and engine balance issue. It is pointless to debate the sticky valve diagnosis as this can only be verified by an engine disassembly. However, the engine vibration is not conjecture and can easily be verified by a second opinion which I will get when I have time and money as CCR will only pay half of the diagnostic fee if the engine is confirmed defective. An imbalance has nothing to do with compression, so I will only have the imbalance confirmed.
Final Business Response /* (4000, 14, 2015/06/17) */
Quote: The problems noted in the diagnostic report are two fold: P030x (misfire Error) and engine balance issue. It is pointless to debate the sticky valve diagnosis as this can only be verified by an engine disassembly. However, the engine vibration is not conjecture and can easily be verified by a second opinion which I will get when I have time and money as CCR will only pay half of the diagnostic fee if the engine is confirmed defective. An imbalance has nothing to do with compression, so I will only have the imbalance confirmed.
I now restate that, IF the diagnostics confirm that the engine itself is defective, WE WILL PAY FOR THE DIAGNOSTIC TEST! How much more clearly can this be stated? Yes, our warranty labor rate is $65/hr., more than any other rebuilder by the way, and I can usually arrange with any shop to honor that amount. We can be flexible on that.
Having only the imbalance confirmed, but not the reason for it, is not a true diagnosis. The imbalance is a SYMPTOM, NOT the problem itself.
While I agree with the comment about the "sticky valve", a compression test MUST be done to determine where the problem lies. IF the compression test is good, no leak down test is necessary: if it is bad, the leak down will help pinpoint where the problem is.
I reiterate: to wait 6 months before first contacting us, then to expect us to just throw another $4,000 engine at the car without determining the problem(s) is unreasonable. To go on public forums and complain about our company is egregious at best.
We are a small, family owned company not a large corporation. We will work with you, but that also requires that you work with us (read your warranty!). What I am asking is not unfair, nor is it arbitrary. If you want a new engine from us, plus the cost of installation, we require the simple testing shown above.
Regards,
[redacted]
Colorado Component Rebuilders, Inc.