Initial Business Response / [redacted] (1000, 5, 2015/10/15) */ General: In [redacted] we contracted with [redacted] to supply and install a complete space and water heating system, as described by the complainantThis installation was performed at or above industry standard, utilizing equipment and materials for their intended purposesContractor Warranty is one year, and equipment warranty is provided by the manufacturerMaintaining a manufacturer's warranty requires regular scheduled maintenance annually at minimumThis work was completed [redacted] On [redacted] we received a completed satisfaction survey from this customer with all questions answered at their highest value of satisfaction (out of 5) Boiler/Condensate Pump: The boiler ( [redacted] ) is wall mounted with a condensate drain located on the bottom, which requires removal to a suitable sanitary drain, upstream of a plumbing trap, to ensure sewer gases do not enter the condensate drain in the boilerThis required the use of a pump which collects the condensate in small volumes, and when activated by an internal float, the condensation is pumped via appropriate tubing to the laundry tub, as is standard practice Product Failure: The failure as we can tell was the condensate pump discharge fitting breaking away from the body of the pump as described by the customerThe cause of this failure is unknownThe customer visited our facility with the broken condensate pump, and did NOT having a licensed technician visit the premises where the system was installed to review the situation at the time the failure was recognized Water Heater: The water heater would have been placed in or near the location of the boiler that would have existed before itThe material of the floor, or floor structure would have been considered at the time of installationWe have no record of instruction from the customer or discussion between installing technician regarding the location of the water heater as that would have been discussed verbally during the installationTypically a mechanical room is a concrete floor, although, water heaters are frequently installed on wood floors, or suspended floorsThe current condition of the water heater and its piping are a direct result of the water leak/spill, and not an improperly installed water heater History: We have not been to the site to review any circumstance of this issue, and to this point, we do not know the condition of the system or how it may be functioning without the condensate pump in placeSince ***, we have not visited the customer's home for any reasonWe have no record of regular scheduled maintenance being performed there, and as was discussed with the customer, they claim to have not done any preventative maintenance since the original installation in ***Inspection and cleaning of the condensate pump and piping is part of our annual maintenance regimenNot performing the manufacturers prescribed maintenance voids all warrantiesWe were not notified of the issue until the customer had arrived to show us the broken condensate pump, which incidentally has what appear to be worn/used auto parts stored inside the collection reservoirAgain, the state of the system, and its associated components is unknown to us because we have not been hired to perform preventative maintenance since the original installation, as well, we were not notified of the issue until the homeowner had apparently taken it upon themselves to modify and/or remove system components, and bring the condensate pump to our offices Suggested Remedy: Via telephone, with each occupant of the home on separate occasions, we have offered to have a licensed technician visit to review the system, and provide repairs as necessary for a fair and reasonable priceDuring these discussions, it was suggested by the homeowners, that there may be a way to install the condensation draining system to eliminate the need of a pump, which I agreed our technician would discuss, and if that method was deemed safe and reliable, we would agree to doAt this point we would offer to have a technician visit at our hourly service rate, and take a list of the required material, and then we would offer a quotation to perform the repairs necessary, at which point the customer can decide to accept or decline our offer to bring the system up to its optimum condition Initial Consumer Rebuttal / [redacted] (3000, 7, 2015/10/19) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) "Industry standards" do not endorse failing to follow the installation instructions of the manufacturer [redacted] did not attach the pump unit to a vertical surface as instructed by the manufacturer [redacted] alleges the pump was broken by an impact when it was sitting on the floor at the location of the alleged impact [redacted] insisted that this was the case on occasions; once to myself and once to [redacted] ***We can therefore conclude, given that [redacted] are certified, professional plumbers, this is indeed what happenedIt follows that, had it been installed as the manufacturer instructed, it would not have been impacted and broken because it would not have been at the location where it was, according to ***, impacted This is not a warranty issueThis is a case of [redacted] , chosen by and carried out by ***, that led to the device being subject to impact, which [redacted] has twice declared to be the case [redacted] twice alleges that the pump was broken by an impact but fails to explain how annual service prevents impacts to a device that is installed improperly and is located in the wrong place The client was satisfied because the job looked good on the day it was completed and an opinion on the superficial aspects of the job was thus given [redacted] has already declared that the client knows nothing of these matters because the client is not a certified professional plumberIt follows that the customer's opinion can only be valid for the outward, superficial appearance of the completed jobThe completely ignorant customer, which we know to be the case because the customer is not a certified professional plumber, can have no understanding that [redacted] improperly installed the pumpThe certified professional plumber, the only expert involved, needs to take responsibility for incorrectly installing the pump, a job for which the expert was highly paid to do correctly"Correctly" means according to manufacturer's instructions [redacted] Standard practice is irrelevant[redacted] Best practice would have been a rigid 2" drain pipe over to the main drain pipe m away and m lower than the bottom of the boiler (ample slope for good drainage)This could have been easily done at less expense to the client than the installation of a pump which is liable to break at any time [redacted] told [redacted] Prior that following this most safe and reliable best practice was impossible because the attachment point of a mm plastic drain pipe to the house main cast iron drain pipe was downstream from the plumbing trap and would thus allow sewer gasses to enter the houseThis [redacted] statement is false, as the photographs below demonstrateAs can be clearly seen, the laundry tub and the washing machine tie into the main cast iron drain and they are open pipes with no traps and no sewer gassesAll that [redacted] had to do was insert a "T" fitting into the vertical pipe used by the washing machine and run a mm plastic pipe from beneath the boiler over to the "T"Minor carpentry could easily have accommodated this Why does [redacted] say that the cause of the pump failure is unknown? On separate occasions [redacted] declared it was caused by impactIf it had been properly installed on a wall or on the boiler, it would not have been vulnerable to alleged impactIt was in the wrong place at the wrong time because [redacted] failed to follow the manufacturer's instructions for installation [redacted] made a mistake [redacted] did it wrongEnd of storyNow, do it rightIn this case, the ONLY right way is the best and most reliable way which is also the least expensive wayInstall a m long, mm plastic drain pipe (no moving parts or dependence on electricity) After reflecting on the challenge of installing a very heavy water tank, which requires a strong and permanent foundation which does not allow any movement or shifting, [redacted] chose to install it on an old, cheap [redacted] floor which everybody knows turns to mush when it gets wetA water tankIn an old basement (which are known to be prone to water problems)The old water tank was set on a concrete platform***, [redacted] The non-certified, non-professional customer is supposed to tell the certified, professional plumbers where to put the water tank? Perhaps [redacted] could tell me again what they got paid $ [redacted] for? The house has a concrete floorWhy did [redacted] not take minutes to cut away the cheap [redacted] and set the tank on solid concrete and thus do a proper and permanent job "although, water heaters are frequently installed on wood floors, or suspended floors." So what? Short cuts are sometimes taken (in this case) or sometimes there is no choiceThat does not make the job a proper jobIn this case, [redacted] had a choiceHard, level concrete or cheap, spongey-when-wet [redacted] Which should it be for a foundation? [redacted] This is the first we have heard of an annual maintenance regimenIf it's so critical, why did [redacted] not advise the customer that it was time for an inspectionIs this what [redacted] calls "customer service." The manufacturer does not prescribe when the "periodic" maintenance should be performedDoes ***'s failing to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions void all warranties? The pump should have been installed to the manufacturer's instructionsThat would have prevented the impact which [redacted] twice declared broke itMore importantly, choosing to use a pump when the option of using a less expensive, completely reliable drain pipe was available demonstrated poor judgement on ***'s part and was a big mistake We want the job done rightInstall the drain pipe, which should have been done in the beginning, and let the party responsible for doing it wrong pay to make it right [redacted] made a series of large mistakes which led to considerable damage of the house and a huge amount of aggravation, and exposed the residents to mould, and [redacted] w [redacted] We are not asking [redacted] to fix the damage to the house, which needed immediate remediation because of the [redacted] , or to fix the water tank foundation [redacted] made all the mistakes and created all the problems and they want to take zero responsibility [redacted] Final Business Response / [redacted] (4000, 11, 2015/10/20) */ Comments, suggestions, statements made by the complainant thus far should be regarded as hearsayAt no point has a professional from our organization been asked to visit the premises since the initial installationBased on a lack of service history for this client we simply cannot warrant the state or fitness of the system, or issue in question; and feel it is unreasonable for the complainant to plead ignorance on the service and maintenance requirement of a typical central heating system of this type; especially because they have taken it upon themselves to modify/remove system components without consulting with a professional service provider firstWe stand by our offer to provide materials and labor services to repair/replace the condensation removal system and associated piping or componentsWe are more than happy to provide prompt professional service at a reasonable price Final Consumer Response / [redacted] (4200, 15, 2015/10/21) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) [redacted] has always been welcome to visit to assess the situation but only if the visit is free of chargeWhy should we pay [redacted] to come see their mistakes? The mistakes [redacted] made have nothing to do with servicing the installation or the warrantyThe mistakes [redacted] made were in the installation itselfIt was wrong from Day One I unplugged, from a common wall outlet, a pump that was not attached to anythingThat is like saying that unplugging a desk lamp is to modify/remove a system component of the houseAbsurd There is nothing to repair or replaceInstalling the pump in the first place was a mistake that does not need repeatingThere is no associated piping or componentsThis statement by [redacted] is not logical [redacted] does not seem to have a clear understanding of the details of the installation they performed [redacted] appears to have difficulty understanding: - that they erred in deciding to install an inherently unreliable sump pump, subject to failure (mechanical breakage, power failure etc) instead of a much more reliable mm plastic drain pipeThe costs would have been the same; - they further erred by failing to follow the manufacturer's instructions for the installation of the pump by just sitting it on the floor instead of attaching it to the wall; - this failure to install the pump properly caused it to be subject to the impact which [redacted] has twice claimed caused it to break; - the pump failure caused flooding which damaged the house and required the removal of sq metres of flooring to remove mould; - [redacted] further erred by installing a heavy water tank on top of cheap [redacted] flooring sitting on top of a rotting sub-frame [redacted] did not know the condition of the sub-frame but "took a chance" instead of verifying that the wood was sound; - One image below is a piece of 2xsub-frame removed from beneath the water tankThe other image is the water tank now reinforced with new supporting woodIt's worth noting that the old tank was sitting securely on a concrete pad We don't want a "reasonable price" from ***We want [redacted] do the job right this time, on their coinWhy should we pay for their [redacted] work and [redacted] which have caused us a lot of grief? Let them return and install the m of mm drain pipe that they should have installed at the beginningDo the job right this timeDo not repeat the above errors
Initial Business Response / [redacted] (1000, 5, 2016/12/05) */ Contact Name and Title: [redacted] Contact Phone: [redacted] Contact Email: [redacted] To whom it may concern, in response to complaint made to Revdex.com we regret that this former customer feels he has been wronged in some wayTo start, in our opinion warranty is provided by manufacturerWe provide a generous year warranty on all of our work Approximately years ago he purchased a [redacted] wood stoveApproximately years ago he developed a crack which the manufacturer covered the cost of having it welded the crack in the stove body came back from a poor weld replacement from a welding company selected by the clientNovember 2, we had a new full replacement stove body sent to our locationIt sat here for months before the customer came to pick up at no chargeCustomer signed work order stating 90Day warrantyThen sat in customer's house for months until September 28, almost a year later called to say the stove body was incorrectAll proper information was given to manufacturer for replacement by us We then handled all paper work to get another stove body sent at no chargeA new stove body was shipped November 2, to our location again which sat here until the client picked up May 10, August The client contacted us again saying his heat shield and other components of his previous model don't fit on his new stove bodyI advised him that we have done as much as possible for him and he should contact manufacturer directly to get this issue resolved which he didThe manufacturer sent some parts apparently which were incorrect againAfter washing our hands of this as we feel this dispute is between the manufacturer and client, both parties requested us to assist one last timeWe had a third stove body delivered to our location, and agreed to bill the manufacturer for our time to go out and replace for customerBecause of previous ongoing issues with this I made sure everything was tracked and communicated with manufacturerAfter the newest stove body arrived I emailed manufacturer our anticipated install dateAfter talking to client and confirming November 15, as an install date, I followed up a conversation with manufacturer to confirm which is all tracked by a call log See attached correspondences Date in question November 15, we called before going, no answer but still proceeded to go out in case the homeowner was in the yard or away from the phoneNo one homeAs he stated he called at the end of the week wondering when we were comingWhen I said we were there on Tuesday he started to argue the install dateI asked if he received our msg's and door knocker which he acknowledged he didI told him we can't make a return visit unless he wants to pay for our trip outHe knew we were going to charge manufacturer $ [redacted] HrWe had hrs for our technicians to drive out and make a wasted tripI also gave the option of him coming to pick it up himself, signing a waiver agreeing there is no further warranty from usHe denied both options, so I advised he needs to contact manufacturer I will provide copies of emails with dates of correspondences, call logs to manufacturer and packing slipsIn closing because it's manufacturer's warranty, we feel the customer's dispute is with the manufacturer & not us Initial Consumer Rebuttal / [redacted] (3000, 8, 2016/12/06) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) Most of the issues I had have been with the incompetency of the manufacturer to provide a safe quality productThe issue I have with the store is them showing up to my home on the 15th when I told them I had to work that day and expecting me to financialy pay for their mistakeGiven the poor service I have received in the past with this stove, I checked my schedule twice and told them the 18th was the only day I was available that weekHe made the mistake of scheduling the 15th instead of the 18thI am willing to compromise on the issue as I have been very patientI am requesting the store deliver the stove to my house and I would sign a waiver agreeing there is no further warranty from themI will be responsible for the installation of the stove I finally had the manufacturer come to an agreement to cover the cost for the store to deliver and instal the stove It's disappointing and unprofessional for the store to not follow through on the agreement based on their mistake on the date of service As mentioned above, I am prepared to compromise Final Business Response / [redacted] (4000, 10, 2016/12/08) */ In our response, we disagree with the customer regarding the schedulingWe know nothing about the service to be provided days later on the 18thThe client can pick the part up at our office at no charge of course Again the only warranty if any is as per the Manufacturer, so we won't require any "waiver" signedInstead a signature acknowledging he has picked the product up is all we ask
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2015/06/18) */
Contact Name and Title: [redacted]
Contact Phone:[redacted]
Contact Email: [redacted]@mastertech.ca
Upon receipt of further information from our technician, a call was placed to Mr[redacted] apologizing for the way in which...
circumstances occurred. I requested we be able to send a technician over to address any problems and fix to ensure proper cooling of his heat pump. Mr[redacted] advised he had since contacted another company to troubleshoot and they would be attending this matter today. I requested that Mr[redacted] keep me informed of any costs associated with this matter so we may do the right thing.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2015/06/20) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
The heat pump problem was resolved by the other company.
If "doing the right thing" is refunding the cost paid to the other company we will be agreeable to that.
Final Consumer Response /* (2000, 37, 2015/12/14) */
(The consumer indicated he/she ACCEPTED the response from the business.)
We accept the resolution proposed. [redacted]
Final Business Response /* (4000, 35, 2015/12/14) */
Thank you for providing the service invoice. We agree to pay the $[redacted] +HST ($[redacted] total) "service call" portion of the invoice. We would like to confirm the cheque should be sent to the address we have on file.
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2016/12/05) */
Contact Name and Title: [redacted]
Contact Phone: [redacted]
Contact Email: [redacted]
To whom it may concern, in response to complaint made to Revdex.com we regret that this former customer feels he has been wronged in...
some way. To start, in our opinion warranty is provided by manufacturer. We provide a generous 1 year warranty on all of our work.
Approximately 8 years ago he purchased a [redacted] wood stove. Approximately 3 years ago he developed a crack which the manufacturer covered the cost of having it welded.
2014 the crack in the stove body came back from a poor weld replacement from a welding company selected by the client. November 2, 2014 we had a new full replacement stove body sent to our location. It sat here for months before the customer came to pick up at no charge. Customer signed work order stating 90Day warranty. Then sat in customer's house for months until September 28, 2015 almost a year later called to say the stove body was incorrect. All proper information was given to manufacturer for replacement by us .
We then handled all paper work to get another stove body sent at no charge. A new stove body was shipped November 2, 2015 to our location again which sat here until the client picked up May 10, 2016.
August 2016. The client contacted us again saying his heat shield and other components of his previous model don't fit on his new stove body. I advised him that we have done as much as possible for him and he should contact manufacturer directly to get this issue resolved which he did. The manufacturer sent some parts apparently which were incorrect again. After washing our hands of this as we feel this dispute is between the manufacturer and client, both parties requested us to assist one last time. We had a third stove body delivered to our location, and agreed to bill the manufacturer for our time to go out and replace for customer. Because of previous ongoing issues with this I made sure everything was tracked and communicated with manufacturer. After the newest stove body arrived I emailed manufacturer our anticipated install date. After talking to client and confirming November 15, 2016 as an install date, I followed up a conversation with manufacturer to confirm which is all tracked by a call log See attached correspondences.
Date in question November 15, 2016 we called before going, no answer but still proceeded to go out in case the homeowner was in the yard or away from the phone. No one home. As he stated he called at the end of the week wondering when we were coming. When I said we were there on Tuesday he started to argue the install date. I asked if he received our msg's and door knocker which he acknowledged he did. I told him we can't make a return visit unless he wants to pay for our trip out. He knew we were going to charge manufacturer $[redacted] Hr. We had 2 hrs for our technicians to drive out and make a wasted trip. I also gave the option of him coming to pick it up himself, signing a waiver agreeing there is no further warranty from us. He denied both options, so I advised he needs to contact manufacturer.
I will provide copies of emails with dates of correspondences, call logs to manufacturer and packing slips. In closing because it's manufacturer's warranty, we feel the customer's dispute is with the manufacturer & not us.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 8, 2016/12/06) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
Most of the issues I had have been with the incompetency of the manufacturer to provide a safe quality product. The issue I have with the store is them showing up to my home on the 15th when I told them I had to work that day and expecting me to financialy pay for their mistake. Given the poor service I have received in the past with this stove, I checked my schedule twice and told them the 18th was the only day I was available that week. He made the mistake of scheduling the 15th instead of the 18th. I am willing to compromise on the issue as I have been very patient. I am requesting the store deliver the stove to my house and I would sign a waiver agreeing there is no further warranty from them. I will be responsible for the installation of the stove.
I finally had the manufacturer come to an agreement to cover the cost for the store to deliver and instal the stove.
It's disappointing and unprofessional for the store to not follow through on the agreement based on their mistake on the date of service.
As mentioned above, I am prepared to compromise.
Final Business Response /* (4000, 10, 2016/12/08) */
In our response, we disagree with the customer regarding the scheduling. We know nothing about the service to be provided 3 days later on the 18th. The client can pick the part up at our office at no charge of course.
Again the only warranty if any is as per the Manufacturer, so we won't require any "waiver" signed. Instead a signature acknowledging he has picked the product up is all we ask.
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2015/10/15) */
General: In [redacted] we contracted with [redacted] to supply and install a complete space and water heating system, as described by the complainant. This installation was performed at or above industry standard, utilizing equipment and materials...
for their intended purposes. Contractor Warranty is one year, and equipment warranty is provided by the manufacturer. Maintaining a manufacturer's warranty requires regular scheduled maintenance annually at minimum. This work was completed [redacted]. On [redacted] we received a completed satisfaction survey from this customer with all questions answered at their highest value of satisfaction (5 out of 5).
Boiler/Condensate Pump: The boiler ([redacted]) is wall mounted with a condensate drain located on the bottom, which requires removal to a suitable sanitary drain, upstream of a plumbing trap, to ensure sewer gases do not enter the condensate drain in the boiler. This required the use of a pump which collects the condensate in small volumes, and when activated by an internal float, the condensation is pumped via appropriate tubing to the laundry tub, as is standard practice.
Product Failure: The failure as we can tell was the condensate pump discharge fitting breaking away from the body of the pump as described by the customer. The cause of this failure is unknown. The customer visited our facility with the broken condensate pump, and did NOT having a licensed technician visit the premises where the system was installed to review the situation at the time the failure was recognized.
Water Heater: The water heater would have been placed in or near the location of the boiler that would have existed before it. The material of the floor, or floor structure would have been considered at the time of installation. We have no record of instruction from the customer or discussion between installing technician regarding the location of the water heater as that would have been discussed verbally during the installation. Typically a mechanical room is a concrete floor, although, water heaters are frequently installed on wood floors, or suspended floors. The current condition of the water heater and its piping are a direct result of the water leak/spill, and not an improperly installed water heater.
History: We have not been to the site to review any circumstance of this issue, and to this point, we do not know the condition of the system or how it may be functioning without the condensate pump in place. Since [redacted], we have not visited the customer's home for any reason. We have no record of regular scheduled maintenance being performed there, and as was discussed with the customer, they claim to have not done any preventative maintenance since the original installation in [redacted]. Inspection and cleaning of the condensate pump and piping is part of our annual maintenance regimen. Not performing the manufacturers prescribed maintenance voids all warranties. We were not notified of the issue until the customer had arrived to show us the broken condensate pump, which incidentally has what appear to be worn/used auto parts stored inside the collection reservoir. Again, the state of the system, and its associated components is unknown to us because we have not been hired to perform preventative maintenance since the original installation, as well, we were not notified of the issue until the homeowner had apparently taken it upon themselves to modify and/or remove system components, and bring the condensate pump to our offices.
Suggested Remedy: Via telephone, with each occupant of the home on separate occasions, we have offered to have a licensed technician visit to review the system, and provide repairs as necessary for a fair and reasonable price. During these discussions, it was suggested by the homeowners, that there may be a way to install the condensation draining system to eliminate the need of a pump, which I agreed our technician would discuss, and if that method was deemed safe and reliable, we would agree to do. At this point we would offer to have a technician visit at our hourly service rate, and take a list of the required material, and then we would offer a quotation to perform the repairs necessary, at which point the customer can decide to accept or decline our offer to bring the system up to its optimum condition.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2015/10/19) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
"Industry standards" do not endorse failing to follow the installation instructions of the manufacturer. [redacted] did not attach the pump unit to a vertical surface as instructed by the manufacturer. [redacted] alleges the pump was broken by an impact when it was sitting on the floor at the location of the alleged impact. [redacted] insisted that this was the case on 2 occasions; once to myself and once to [redacted]. We can therefore conclude, given that [redacted] are certified, professional plumbers, this is indeed what happened. It follows that, had it been installed as the manufacturer instructed, it would not have been impacted and broken because it would not have been at the location where it was, according to [redacted], impacted.
This is not a warranty issue. This is a case of [redacted], chosen by and carried out by [redacted], that led to the device being subject to impact, which [redacted] has twice declared to be the case. [redacted] twice alleges that the pump was broken by an impact but fails to explain how annual service prevents impacts to a device that is installed improperly and is located in the wrong place.
The client was satisfied because the job looked good on the day it was completed and an opinion on the superficial aspects of the job was thus given. [redacted] has already declared that the client knows nothing of these matters because the client is not a certified professional plumber. It follows that the customer's opinion can only be valid for the outward, superficial appearance of the completed job. The completely ignorant customer, which we know to be the case because the customer is not a certified professional plumber, can have no understanding that [redacted] improperly installed the pump. The certified professional plumber, the only expert involved, needs to take responsibility for incorrectly installing the pump, a job for which the expert was highly paid to do correctly. "Correctly" means according to manufacturer's instructions. [redacted]
Standard practice is irrelevant.[redacted] Best practice would have been a rigid 2" drain pipe over to the main drain pipe 5 m away and 0.5 m lower than the bottom of the boiler (ample slope for good drainage). This could have been easily done at less expense to the client than the installation of a pump which is liable to break at any time. [redacted] told [redacted] Prior that following this most safe and reliable best practice was impossible because the attachment point of a 50 mm plastic drain pipe to the house main cast iron drain pipe was downstream from the plumbing trap and would thus allow sewer gasses to enter the house. This [redacted] statement is false, as the photographs below demonstrate. As can be clearly seen, the laundry tub and the washing machine tie into the main cast iron drain and they are open pipes with no traps and no sewer gasses. All that [redacted] had to do was insert a "T" fitting into the vertical pipe used by the washing machine and run a 50 mm plastic pipe from beneath the boiler over to the "T". Minor carpentry could easily have accommodated this.
Why does [redacted] say that the cause of the pump failure is unknown? On 2 separate occasions [redacted] declared it was caused by impact. If it had been properly installed on a wall or on the boiler, it would not have been vulnerable to alleged impact. It was in the wrong place at the wrong time because [redacted] failed to follow the manufacturer's instructions for installation. [redacted] made a mistake. [redacted] did it wrong. End of story. Now, do it right. In this case, the ONLY right way is the best and most reliable way which is also the least expensive way. Install a 5 m long, 50 mm plastic drain pipe (no moving parts or dependence on electricity).
After reflecting on the challenge of installing a very heavy water tank, which requires a strong and permanent foundation which does not allow any movement or shifting, [redacted] chose to install it on an old, cheap [redacted] floor which everybody knows turns to mush when it gets wet. A water tank. In an old basement (which are known to be prone to water problems). The old water tank was set on a concrete platform. [redacted]
The non-certified, non-professional customer is supposed to tell the certified, professional plumbers where to put the water tank? Perhaps [redacted] could tell me again what they got paid $[redacted] for?
The house has a concrete floor. Why did [redacted] not take 10 minutes to cut away the cheap [redacted] and set the tank on solid concrete and thus do a proper and permanent job.
"although, water heaters are frequently installed on wood floors, or suspended floors." So what? Short cuts are sometimes taken (in this case) or sometimes there is no choice. That does not make the job a proper job. In this case, [redacted] had a choice. Hard, level concrete or cheap, spongey-when-wet [redacted]. Which should it be for a foundation?
[redacted]
This is the first we have heard of an annual maintenance regimen. If it's so critical, why did [redacted] not advise the customer that it was time for an inspection. Is this what [redacted] calls "customer service."
The manufacturer does not prescribe when the "periodic" maintenance should be performed. Does [redacted]'s failing to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions void all warranties?
The pump should have been installed to the manufacturer's instructions. That would have prevented the impact which [redacted] twice declared broke it. More importantly, choosing to use a pump when the option of using a less expensive, completely reliable drain pipe was available demonstrated poor judgement on [redacted]'s part and was a big mistake.
We want the job done right. Install the drain pipe, which should have been done in the beginning, and let the party responsible for doing it wrong pay to make it right.
[redacted] made a series of large mistakes which led to considerable damage of the house and a huge amount of aggravation, and exposed the residents to mould, and [redacted] We are not asking [redacted] to fix the damage to the house, which needed immediate remediation because of the [redacted], or to fix the water tank foundation. [redacted] made all the mistakes and created all the problems and they want to take zero responsibility. [redacted]
Final Business Response /* (4000, 11, 2015/10/20) */
Comments, suggestions, statements made by the complainant thus far should be regarded as hearsay. At no point has a professional from our organization been asked to visit the premises since the initial installation. Based on a lack of service history for this client we simply cannot warrant the state or fitness of the system, or issue in question; and feel it is unreasonable for the complainant to plead ignorance on the service and maintenance requirement of a typical central heating system of this type; especially because they have taken it upon themselves to modify/remove system components without consulting with a professional service provider first. We stand by our offer to provide materials and labor services to repair/replace the condensation removal system and associated piping or components. We are more than happy to provide prompt professional service at a reasonable price.
Final Consumer Response /* (4200, 15, 2015/10/21) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
[redacted] has always been welcome to visit to assess the situation but only if the visit is free of charge. Why should we pay [redacted] to come see their mistakes?
The mistakes [redacted] made have nothing to do with servicing the installation or the warranty. The mistakes [redacted] made were in the installation itself. It was wrong from Day One.
I unplugged, from a common wall outlet, a pump that was not attached to anything. That is like saying that unplugging a desk lamp is to modify/remove a system component of the house. Absurd
There is nothing to repair or replace. Installing the pump in the first place was a mistake that does not need repeating. There is no associated piping or components. This statement by [redacted] is not logical. [redacted] does not seem to have a clear understanding of the details of the installation they performed.
[redacted] appears to have difficulty understanding:
- that they erred in deciding to install an inherently unreliable sump pump, subject to failure (mechanical breakage, power failure etc) instead of a much more reliable 50 mm plastic drain pipe. The costs would have been the same;
- they further erred by failing to follow the manufacturer's instructions for the installation of the pump by just sitting it on the floor instead of attaching it to the wall;
- this failure to install the pump properly caused it to be subject to the impact which [redacted] has twice claimed caused it to break;
- the pump failure caused flooding which damaged the house and required the removal of 6 sq metres of flooring to remove mould;
- [redacted] further erred by installing a heavy water tank on top of cheap [redacted] flooring sitting on top of a rotting sub-frame. [redacted] did not know the condition of the sub-frame but "took a chance" instead of verifying that the wood was sound;
- One image below is a piece of 2x4 sub-frame removed from beneath the water tank. The other image is the water tank now reinforced with new supporting wood. It's worth noting that the old tank was sitting securely on a concrete pad.
We don't want a "reasonable price" from [redacted]. We want [redacted] do the job right this time, on their coin. Why should we pay for their [redacted] work and [redacted] which have caused us a lot of grief? Let them return and install the 5 m of 50 mm drain pipe that they should have installed at the beginning. Do the job right this time. Do not repeat the above errors.
Initial Business Response / [redacted] (1000, 5, 2015/10/15) */ General: In [redacted] we contracted with [redacted] to supply and install a complete space and water heating system, as described by the complainantThis installation was performed at or above industry standard, utilizing equipment and materials for their intended purposesContractor Warranty is one year, and equipment warranty is provided by the manufacturerMaintaining a manufacturer's warranty requires regular scheduled maintenance annually at minimumThis work was completed [redacted] On [redacted] we received a completed satisfaction survey from this customer with all questions answered at their highest value of satisfaction (out of 5) Boiler/Condensate Pump: The boiler ( [redacted] ) is wall mounted with a condensate drain located on the bottom, which requires removal to a suitable sanitary drain, upstream of a plumbing trap, to ensure sewer gases do not enter the condensate drain in the boilerThis required the use of a pump which collects the condensate in small volumes, and when activated by an internal float, the condensation is pumped via appropriate tubing to the laundry tub, as is standard practice Product Failure: The failure as we can tell was the condensate pump discharge fitting breaking away from the body of the pump as described by the customerThe cause of this failure is unknownThe customer visited our facility with the broken condensate pump, and did NOT having a licensed technician visit the premises where the system was installed to review the situation at the time the failure was recognized Water Heater: The water heater would have been placed in or near the location of the boiler that would have existed before itThe material of the floor, or floor structure would have been considered at the time of installationWe have no record of instruction from the customer or discussion between installing technician regarding the location of the water heater as that would have been discussed verbally during the installationTypically a mechanical room is a concrete floor, although, water heaters are frequently installed on wood floors, or suspended floorsThe current condition of the water heater and its piping are a direct result of the water leak/spill, and not an improperly installed water heater History: We have not been to the site to review any circumstance of this issue, and to this point, we do not know the condition of the system or how it may be functioning without the condensate pump in placeSince ***, we have not visited the customer's home for any reasonWe have no record of regular scheduled maintenance being performed there, and as was discussed with the customer, they claim to have not done any preventative maintenance since the original installation in ***Inspection and cleaning of the condensate pump and piping is part of our annual maintenance regimenNot performing the manufacturers prescribed maintenance voids all warrantiesWe were not notified of the issue until the customer had arrived to show us the broken condensate pump, which incidentally has what appear to be worn/used auto parts stored inside the collection reservoirAgain, the state of the system, and its associated components is unknown to us because we have not been hired to perform preventative maintenance since the original installation, as well, we were not notified of the issue until the homeowner had apparently taken it upon themselves to modify and/or remove system components, and bring the condensate pump to our offices Suggested Remedy: Via telephone, with each occupant of the home on separate occasions, we have offered to have a licensed technician visit to review the system, and provide repairs as necessary for a fair and reasonable priceDuring these discussions, it was suggested by the homeowners, that there may be a way to install the condensation draining system to eliminate the need of a pump, which I agreed our technician would discuss, and if that method was deemed safe and reliable, we would agree to doAt this point we would offer to have a technician visit at our hourly service rate, and take a list of the required material, and then we would offer a quotation to perform the repairs necessary, at which point the customer can decide to accept or decline our offer to bring the system up to its optimum condition Initial Consumer Rebuttal / [redacted] (3000, 7, 2015/10/19) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) "Industry standards" do not endorse failing to follow the installation instructions of the manufacturer [redacted] did not attach the pump unit to a vertical surface as instructed by the manufacturer [redacted] alleges the pump was broken by an impact when it was sitting on the floor at the location of the alleged impact [redacted] insisted that this was the case on occasions; once to myself and once to [redacted] ***We can therefore conclude, given that [redacted] are certified, professional plumbers, this is indeed what happenedIt follows that, had it been installed as the manufacturer instructed, it would not have been impacted and broken because it would not have been at the location where it was, according to ***, impacted This is not a warranty issueThis is a case of [redacted] , chosen by and carried out by ***, that led to the device being subject to impact, which [redacted] has twice declared to be the case [redacted] twice alleges that the pump was broken by an impact but fails to explain how annual service prevents impacts to a device that is installed improperly and is located in the wrong place The client was satisfied because the job looked good on the day it was completed and an opinion on the superficial aspects of the job was thus given [redacted] has already declared that the client knows nothing of these matters because the client is not a certified professional plumberIt follows that the customer's opinion can only be valid for the outward, superficial appearance of the completed jobThe completely ignorant customer, which we know to be the case because the customer is not a certified professional plumber, can have no understanding that [redacted] improperly installed the pumpThe certified professional plumber, the only expert involved, needs to take responsibility for incorrectly installing the pump, a job for which the expert was highly paid to do correctly"Correctly" means according to manufacturer's instructions [redacted] Standard practice is irrelevant[redacted] Best practice would have been a rigid 2" drain pipe over to the main drain pipe m away and m lower than the bottom of the boiler (ample slope for good drainage)This could have been easily done at less expense to the client than the installation of a pump which is liable to break at any time [redacted] told [redacted] Prior that following this most safe and reliable best practice was impossible because the attachment point of a mm plastic drain pipe to the house main cast iron drain pipe was downstream from the plumbing trap and would thus allow sewer gasses to enter the houseThis [redacted] statement is false, as the photographs below demonstrateAs can be clearly seen, the laundry tub and the washing machine tie into the main cast iron drain and they are open pipes with no traps and no sewer gassesAll that [redacted] had to do was insert a "T" fitting into the vertical pipe used by the washing machine and run a mm plastic pipe from beneath the boiler over to the "T"Minor carpentry could easily have accommodated this Why does [redacted] say that the cause of the pump failure is unknown? On separate occasions [redacted] declared it was caused by impactIf it had been properly installed on a wall or on the boiler, it would not have been vulnerable to alleged impactIt was in the wrong place at the wrong time because [redacted] failed to follow the manufacturer's instructions for installation [redacted] made a mistake [redacted] did it wrongEnd of storyNow, do it rightIn this case, the ONLY right way is the best and most reliable way which is also the least expensive wayInstall a m long, mm plastic drain pipe (no moving parts or dependence on electricity) After reflecting on the challenge of installing a very heavy water tank, which requires a strong and permanent foundation which does not allow any movement or shifting, [redacted] chose to install it on an old, cheap [redacted] floor which everybody knows turns to mush when it gets wetA water tankIn an old basement (which are known to be prone to water problems)The old water tank was set on a concrete platform***, [redacted] The non-certified, non-professional customer is supposed to tell the certified, professional plumbers where to put the water tank? Perhaps [redacted] could tell me again what they got paid $ [redacted] for? The house has a concrete floorWhy did [redacted] not take minutes to cut away the cheap [redacted] and set the tank on solid concrete and thus do a proper and permanent job "although, water heaters are frequently installed on wood floors, or suspended floors." So what? Short cuts are sometimes taken (in this case) or sometimes there is no choiceThat does not make the job a proper jobIn this case, [redacted] had a choiceHard, level concrete or cheap, spongey-when-wet [redacted] Which should it be for a foundation? [redacted] This is the first we have heard of an annual maintenance regimenIf it's so critical, why did [redacted] not advise the customer that it was time for an inspectionIs this what [redacted] calls "customer service." The manufacturer does not prescribe when the "periodic" maintenance should be performedDoes ***'s failing to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions void all warranties? The pump should have been installed to the manufacturer's instructionsThat would have prevented the impact which [redacted] twice declared broke itMore importantly, choosing to use a pump when the option of using a less expensive, completely reliable drain pipe was available demonstrated poor judgement on ***'s part and was a big mistake We want the job done rightInstall the drain pipe, which should have been done in the beginning, and let the party responsible for doing it wrong pay to make it right [redacted] made a series of large mistakes which led to considerable damage of the house and a huge amount of aggravation, and exposed the residents to mould, and [redacted] w [redacted] We are not asking [redacted] to fix the damage to the house, which needed immediate remediation because of the [redacted] , or to fix the water tank foundation [redacted] made all the mistakes and created all the problems and they want to take zero responsibility [redacted] Final Business Response / [redacted] (4000, 11, 2015/10/20) */ Comments, suggestions, statements made by the complainant thus far should be regarded as hearsayAt no point has a professional from our organization been asked to visit the premises since the initial installationBased on a lack of service history for this client we simply cannot warrant the state or fitness of the system, or issue in question; and feel it is unreasonable for the complainant to plead ignorance on the service and maintenance requirement of a typical central heating system of this type; especially because they have taken it upon themselves to modify/remove system components without consulting with a professional service provider firstWe stand by our offer to provide materials and labor services to repair/replace the condensation removal system and associated piping or componentsWe are more than happy to provide prompt professional service at a reasonable price Final Consumer Response / [redacted] (4200, 15, 2015/10/21) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) [redacted] has always been welcome to visit to assess the situation but only if the visit is free of chargeWhy should we pay [redacted] to come see their mistakes? The mistakes [redacted] made have nothing to do with servicing the installation or the warrantyThe mistakes [redacted] made were in the installation itselfIt was wrong from Day One I unplugged, from a common wall outlet, a pump that was not attached to anythingThat is like saying that unplugging a desk lamp is to modify/remove a system component of the houseAbsurd There is nothing to repair or replaceInstalling the pump in the first place was a mistake that does not need repeatingThere is no associated piping or componentsThis statement by [redacted] is not logical [redacted] does not seem to have a clear understanding of the details of the installation they performed [redacted] appears to have difficulty understanding: - that they erred in deciding to install an inherently unreliable sump pump, subject to failure (mechanical breakage, power failure etc) instead of a much more reliable mm plastic drain pipeThe costs would have been the same; - they further erred by failing to follow the manufacturer's instructions for the installation of the pump by just sitting it on the floor instead of attaching it to the wall; - this failure to install the pump properly caused it to be subject to the impact which [redacted] has twice claimed caused it to break; - the pump failure caused flooding which damaged the house and required the removal of sq metres of flooring to remove mould; - [redacted] further erred by installing a heavy water tank on top of cheap [redacted] flooring sitting on top of a rotting sub-frame [redacted] did not know the condition of the sub-frame but "took a chance" instead of verifying that the wood was sound; - One image below is a piece of 2xsub-frame removed from beneath the water tankThe other image is the water tank now reinforced with new supporting woodIt's worth noting that the old tank was sitting securely on a concrete pad We don't want a "reasonable price" from ***We want [redacted] do the job right this time, on their coinWhy should we pay for their [redacted] work and [redacted] which have caused us a lot of grief? Let them return and install the m of mm drain pipe that they should have installed at the beginningDo the job right this timeDo not repeat the above errors
Initial Business Response / [redacted] (1000, 5, 2016/12/05) */ Contact Name and Title: [redacted] Contact Phone: [redacted] Contact Email: [redacted] To whom it may concern, in response to complaint made to Revdex.com we regret that this former customer feels he has been wronged in some wayTo start, in our opinion warranty is provided by manufacturerWe provide a generous year warranty on all of our work Approximately years ago he purchased a [redacted] wood stoveApproximately years ago he developed a crack which the manufacturer covered the cost of having it welded the crack in the stove body came back from a poor weld replacement from a welding company selected by the clientNovember 2, we had a new full replacement stove body sent to our locationIt sat here for months before the customer came to pick up at no chargeCustomer signed work order stating 90Day warrantyThen sat in customer's house for months until September 28, almost a year later called to say the stove body was incorrectAll proper information was given to manufacturer for replacement by us We then handled all paper work to get another stove body sent at no chargeA new stove body was shipped November 2, to our location again which sat here until the client picked up May 10, August The client contacted us again saying his heat shield and other components of his previous model don't fit on his new stove bodyI advised him that we have done as much as possible for him and he should contact manufacturer directly to get this issue resolved which he didThe manufacturer sent some parts apparently which were incorrect againAfter washing our hands of this as we feel this dispute is between the manufacturer and client, both parties requested us to assist one last timeWe had a third stove body delivered to our location, and agreed to bill the manufacturer for our time to go out and replace for customerBecause of previous ongoing issues with this I made sure everything was tracked and communicated with manufacturerAfter the newest stove body arrived I emailed manufacturer our anticipated install dateAfter talking to client and confirming November 15, as an install date, I followed up a conversation with manufacturer to confirm which is all tracked by a call log See attached correspondences Date in question November 15, we called before going, no answer but still proceeded to go out in case the homeowner was in the yard or away from the phoneNo one homeAs he stated he called at the end of the week wondering when we were comingWhen I said we were there on Tuesday he started to argue the install dateI asked if he received our msg's and door knocker which he acknowledged he didI told him we can't make a return visit unless he wants to pay for our trip outHe knew we were going to charge manufacturer $ [redacted] HrWe had hrs for our technicians to drive out and make a wasted tripI also gave the option of him coming to pick it up himself, signing a waiver agreeing there is no further warranty from usHe denied both options, so I advised he needs to contact manufacturer I will provide copies of emails with dates of correspondences, call logs to manufacturer and packing slipsIn closing because it's manufacturer's warranty, we feel the customer's dispute is with the manufacturer & not us Initial Consumer Rebuttal / [redacted] (3000, 8, 2016/12/06) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) Most of the issues I had have been with the incompetency of the manufacturer to provide a safe quality productThe issue I have with the store is them showing up to my home on the 15th when I told them I had to work that day and expecting me to financialy pay for their mistakeGiven the poor service I have received in the past with this stove, I checked my schedule twice and told them the 18th was the only day I was available that weekHe made the mistake of scheduling the 15th instead of the 18thI am willing to compromise on the issue as I have been very patientI am requesting the store deliver the stove to my house and I would sign a waiver agreeing there is no further warranty from themI will be responsible for the installation of the stove I finally had the manufacturer come to an agreement to cover the cost for the store to deliver and instal the stove It's disappointing and unprofessional for the store to not follow through on the agreement based on their mistake on the date of service As mentioned above, I am prepared to compromise Final Business Response / [redacted] (4000, 10, 2016/12/08) */ In our response, we disagree with the customer regarding the schedulingWe know nothing about the service to be provided days later on the 18thThe client can pick the part up at our office at no charge of course Again the only warranty if any is as per the Manufacturer, so we won't require any "waiver" signedInstead a signature acknowledging he has picked the product up is all we ask
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2015/06/18) */
Contact Name and Title: [redacted]
Contact Phone:[redacted]
Contact Email: [redacted]@mastertech.ca
Upon receipt of further information from our technician, a call was placed to Mr[redacted] apologizing for the way in which...
circumstances occurred. I requested we be able to send a technician over to address any problems and fix to ensure proper cooling of his heat pump. Mr[redacted] advised he had since contacted another company to troubleshoot and they would be attending this matter today. I requested that Mr[redacted] keep me informed of any costs associated with this matter so we may do the right thing.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2015/06/20) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
The heat pump problem was resolved by the other company.
If "doing the right thing" is refunding the cost paid to the other company we will be agreeable to that.
Final Consumer Response /* (2000, 37, 2015/12/14) */
(The consumer indicated he/she ACCEPTED the response from the business.)
We accept the resolution proposed. [redacted]
Final Business Response /* (4000, 35, 2015/12/14) */
Thank you for providing the service invoice. We agree to pay the $[redacted] +HST ($[redacted] total) "service call" portion of the invoice. We would like to confirm the cheque should be sent to the address we have on file.
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2016/12/05) */
Contact Name and Title: [redacted]
Contact Phone: [redacted]
Contact Email: [redacted]
To whom it may concern, in response to complaint made to Revdex.com we regret that this former customer feels he has been wronged in...
some way. To start, in our opinion warranty is provided by manufacturer. We provide a generous 1 year warranty on all of our work.
Approximately 8 years ago he purchased a [redacted] wood stove. Approximately 3 years ago he developed a crack which the manufacturer covered the cost of having it welded.
2014 the crack in the stove body came back from a poor weld replacement from a welding company selected by the client. November 2, 2014 we had a new full replacement stove body sent to our location. It sat here for months before the customer came to pick up at no charge. Customer signed work order stating 90Day warranty. Then sat in customer's house for months until September 28, 2015 almost a year later called to say the stove body was incorrect. All proper information was given to manufacturer for replacement by us .
We then handled all paper work to get another stove body sent at no charge. A new stove body was shipped November 2, 2015 to our location again which sat here until the client picked up May 10, 2016.
August 2016. The client contacted us again saying his heat shield and other components of his previous model don't fit on his new stove body. I advised him that we have done as much as possible for him and he should contact manufacturer directly to get this issue resolved which he did. The manufacturer sent some parts apparently which were incorrect again. After washing our hands of this as we feel this dispute is between the manufacturer and client, both parties requested us to assist one last time. We had a third stove body delivered to our location, and agreed to bill the manufacturer for our time to go out and replace for customer. Because of previous ongoing issues with this I made sure everything was tracked and communicated with manufacturer. After the newest stove body arrived I emailed manufacturer our anticipated install date. After talking to client and confirming November 15, 2016 as an install date, I followed up a conversation with manufacturer to confirm which is all tracked by a call log See attached correspondences.
Date in question November 15, 2016 we called before going, no answer but still proceeded to go out in case the homeowner was in the yard or away from the phone. No one home. As he stated he called at the end of the week wondering when we were coming. When I said we were there on Tuesday he started to argue the install date. I asked if he received our msg's and door knocker which he acknowledged he did. I told him we can't make a return visit unless he wants to pay for our trip out. He knew we were going to charge manufacturer $[redacted] Hr. We had 2 hrs for our technicians to drive out and make a wasted trip. I also gave the option of him coming to pick it up himself, signing a waiver agreeing there is no further warranty from us. He denied both options, so I advised he needs to contact manufacturer.
I will provide copies of emails with dates of correspondences, call logs to manufacturer and packing slips. In closing because it's manufacturer's warranty, we feel the customer's dispute is with the manufacturer & not us.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 8, 2016/12/06) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
Most of the issues I had have been with the incompetency of the manufacturer to provide a safe quality product. The issue I have with the store is them showing up to my home on the 15th when I told them I had to work that day and expecting me to financialy pay for their mistake. Given the poor service I have received in the past with this stove, I checked my schedule twice and told them the 18th was the only day I was available that week. He made the mistake of scheduling the 15th instead of the 18th. I am willing to compromise on the issue as I have been very patient. I am requesting the store deliver the stove to my house and I would sign a waiver agreeing there is no further warranty from them. I will be responsible for the installation of the stove.
I finally had the manufacturer come to an agreement to cover the cost for the store to deliver and instal the stove.
It's disappointing and unprofessional for the store to not follow through on the agreement based on their mistake on the date of service.
As mentioned above, I am prepared to compromise.
Final Business Response /* (4000, 10, 2016/12/08) */
In our response, we disagree with the customer regarding the scheduling. We know nothing about the service to be provided 3 days later on the 18th. The client can pick the part up at our office at no charge of course.
Again the only warranty if any is as per the Manufacturer, so we won't require any "waiver" signed. Instead a signature acknowledging he has picked the product up is all we ask.
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2015/10/15) */
General: In [redacted] we contracted with [redacted] to supply and install a complete space and water heating system, as described by the complainant. This installation was performed at or above industry standard, utilizing equipment and materials...
for their intended purposes. Contractor Warranty is one year, and equipment warranty is provided by the manufacturer. Maintaining a manufacturer's warranty requires regular scheduled maintenance annually at minimum. This work was completed [redacted]. On [redacted] we received a completed satisfaction survey from this customer with all questions answered at their highest value of satisfaction (5 out of 5).
Boiler/Condensate Pump: The boiler ([redacted]) is wall mounted with a condensate drain located on the bottom, which requires removal to a suitable sanitary drain, upstream of a plumbing trap, to ensure sewer gases do not enter the condensate drain in the boiler. This required the use of a pump which collects the condensate in small volumes, and when activated by an internal float, the condensation is pumped via appropriate tubing to the laundry tub, as is standard practice.
Product Failure: The failure as we can tell was the condensate pump discharge fitting breaking away from the body of the pump as described by the customer. The cause of this failure is unknown. The customer visited our facility with the broken condensate pump, and did NOT having a licensed technician visit the premises where the system was installed to review the situation at the time the failure was recognized.
Water Heater: The water heater would have been placed in or near the location of the boiler that would have existed before it. The material of the floor, or floor structure would have been considered at the time of installation. We have no record of instruction from the customer or discussion between installing technician regarding the location of the water heater as that would have been discussed verbally during the installation. Typically a mechanical room is a concrete floor, although, water heaters are frequently installed on wood floors, or suspended floors. The current condition of the water heater and its piping are a direct result of the water leak/spill, and not an improperly installed water heater.
History: We have not been to the site to review any circumstance of this issue, and to this point, we do not know the condition of the system or how it may be functioning without the condensate pump in place. Since [redacted], we have not visited the customer's home for any reason. We have no record of regular scheduled maintenance being performed there, and as was discussed with the customer, they claim to have not done any preventative maintenance since the original installation in [redacted]. Inspection and cleaning of the condensate pump and piping is part of our annual maintenance regimen. Not performing the manufacturers prescribed maintenance voids all warranties. We were not notified of the issue until the customer had arrived to show us the broken condensate pump, which incidentally has what appear to be worn/used auto parts stored inside the collection reservoir. Again, the state of the system, and its associated components is unknown to us because we have not been hired to perform preventative maintenance since the original installation, as well, we were not notified of the issue until the homeowner had apparently taken it upon themselves to modify and/or remove system components, and bring the condensate pump to our offices.
Suggested Remedy: Via telephone, with each occupant of the home on separate occasions, we have offered to have a licensed technician visit to review the system, and provide repairs as necessary for a fair and reasonable price. During these discussions, it was suggested by the homeowners, that there may be a way to install the condensation draining system to eliminate the need of a pump, which I agreed our technician would discuss, and if that method was deemed safe and reliable, we would agree to do. At this point we would offer to have a technician visit at our hourly service rate, and take a list of the required material, and then we would offer a quotation to perform the repairs necessary, at which point the customer can decide to accept or decline our offer to bring the system up to its optimum condition.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2015/10/19) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
"Industry standards" do not endorse failing to follow the installation instructions of the manufacturer. [redacted] did not attach the pump unit to a vertical surface as instructed by the manufacturer. [redacted] alleges the pump was broken by an impact when it was sitting on the floor at the location of the alleged impact. [redacted] insisted that this was the case on 2 occasions; once to myself and once to [redacted]. We can therefore conclude, given that [redacted] are certified, professional plumbers, this is indeed what happened. It follows that, had it been installed as the manufacturer instructed, it would not have been impacted and broken because it would not have been at the location where it was, according to [redacted], impacted.
This is not a warranty issue. This is a case of [redacted], chosen by and carried out by [redacted], that led to the device being subject to impact, which [redacted] has twice declared to be the case. [redacted] twice alleges that the pump was broken by an impact but fails to explain how annual service prevents impacts to a device that is installed improperly and is located in the wrong place.
The client was satisfied because the job looked good on the day it was completed and an opinion on the superficial aspects of the job was thus given. [redacted] has already declared that the client knows nothing of these matters because the client is not a certified professional plumber. It follows that the customer's opinion can only be valid for the outward, superficial appearance of the completed job. The completely ignorant customer, which we know to be the case because the customer is not a certified professional plumber, can have no understanding that [redacted] improperly installed the pump. The certified professional plumber, the only expert involved, needs to take responsibility for incorrectly installing the pump, a job for which the expert was highly paid to do correctly. "Correctly" means according to manufacturer's instructions. [redacted]
Standard practice is irrelevant.[redacted] Best practice would have been a rigid 2" drain pipe over to the main drain pipe 5 m away and 0.5 m lower than the bottom of the boiler (ample slope for good drainage). This could have been easily done at less expense to the client than the installation of a pump which is liable to break at any time. [redacted] told [redacted] Prior that following this most safe and reliable best practice was impossible because the attachment point of a 50 mm plastic drain pipe to the house main cast iron drain pipe was downstream from the plumbing trap and would thus allow sewer gasses to enter the house. This [redacted] statement is false, as the photographs below demonstrate. As can be clearly seen, the laundry tub and the washing machine tie into the main cast iron drain and they are open pipes with no traps and no sewer gasses. All that [redacted] had to do was insert a "T" fitting into the vertical pipe used by the washing machine and run a 50 mm plastic pipe from beneath the boiler over to the "T". Minor carpentry could easily have accommodated this.
Why does [redacted] say that the cause of the pump failure is unknown? On 2 separate occasions [redacted] declared it was caused by impact. If it had been properly installed on a wall or on the boiler, it would not have been vulnerable to alleged impact. It was in the wrong place at the wrong time because [redacted] failed to follow the manufacturer's instructions for installation. [redacted] made a mistake. [redacted] did it wrong. End of story. Now, do it right. In this case, the ONLY right way is the best and most reliable way which is also the least expensive way. Install a 5 m long, 50 mm plastic drain pipe (no moving parts or dependence on electricity).
After reflecting on the challenge of installing a very heavy water tank, which requires a strong and permanent foundation which does not allow any movement or shifting, [redacted] chose to install it on an old, cheap [redacted] floor which everybody knows turns to mush when it gets wet. A water tank. In an old basement (which are known to be prone to water problems). The old water tank was set on a concrete platform. [redacted]
The non-certified, non-professional customer is supposed to tell the certified, professional plumbers where to put the water tank? Perhaps [redacted] could tell me again what they got paid $[redacted] for?
The house has a concrete floor. Why did [redacted] not take 10 minutes to cut away the cheap [redacted] and set the tank on solid concrete and thus do a proper and permanent job.
"although, water heaters are frequently installed on wood floors, or suspended floors." So what? Short cuts are sometimes taken (in this case) or sometimes there is no choice. That does not make the job a proper job. In this case, [redacted] had a choice. Hard, level concrete or cheap, spongey-when-wet [redacted]. Which should it be for a foundation?
[redacted]
This is the first we have heard of an annual maintenance regimen. If it's so critical, why did [redacted] not advise the customer that it was time for an inspection. Is this what [redacted] calls "customer service."
The manufacturer does not prescribe when the "periodic" maintenance should be performed. Does [redacted]'s failing to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions void all warranties?
The pump should have been installed to the manufacturer's instructions. That would have prevented the impact which [redacted] twice declared broke it. More importantly, choosing to use a pump when the option of using a less expensive, completely reliable drain pipe was available demonstrated poor judgement on [redacted]'s part and was a big mistake.
We want the job done right. Install the drain pipe, which should have been done in the beginning, and let the party responsible for doing it wrong pay to make it right.
[redacted] made a series of large mistakes which led to considerable damage of the house and a huge amount of aggravation, and exposed the residents to mould, and [redacted] We are not asking [redacted] to fix the damage to the house, which needed immediate remediation because of the [redacted], or to fix the water tank foundation. [redacted] made all the mistakes and created all the problems and they want to take zero responsibility. [redacted]
Final Business Response /* (4000, 11, 2015/10/20) */
Comments, suggestions, statements made by the complainant thus far should be regarded as hearsay. At no point has a professional from our organization been asked to visit the premises since the initial installation. Based on a lack of service history for this client we simply cannot warrant the state or fitness of the system, or issue in question; and feel it is unreasonable for the complainant to plead ignorance on the service and maintenance requirement of a typical central heating system of this type; especially because they have taken it upon themselves to modify/remove system components without consulting with a professional service provider first. We stand by our offer to provide materials and labor services to repair/replace the condensation removal system and associated piping or components. We are more than happy to provide prompt professional service at a reasonable price.
Final Consumer Response /* (4200, 15, 2015/10/21) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
[redacted] has always been welcome to visit to assess the situation but only if the visit is free of charge. Why should we pay [redacted] to come see their mistakes?
The mistakes [redacted] made have nothing to do with servicing the installation or the warranty. The mistakes [redacted] made were in the installation itself. It was wrong from Day One.
I unplugged, from a common wall outlet, a pump that was not attached to anything. That is like saying that unplugging a desk lamp is to modify/remove a system component of the house. Absurd
There is nothing to repair or replace. Installing the pump in the first place was a mistake that does not need repeating. There is no associated piping or components. This statement by [redacted] is not logical. [redacted] does not seem to have a clear understanding of the details of the installation they performed.
[redacted] appears to have difficulty understanding:
- that they erred in deciding to install an inherently unreliable sump pump, subject to failure (mechanical breakage, power failure etc) instead of a much more reliable 50 mm plastic drain pipe. The costs would have been the same;
- they further erred by failing to follow the manufacturer's instructions for the installation of the pump by just sitting it on the floor instead of attaching it to the wall;
- this failure to install the pump properly caused it to be subject to the impact which [redacted] has twice claimed caused it to break;
- the pump failure caused flooding which damaged the house and required the removal of 6 sq metres of flooring to remove mould;
- [redacted] further erred by installing a heavy water tank on top of cheap [redacted] flooring sitting on top of a rotting sub-frame. [redacted] did not know the condition of the sub-frame but "took a chance" instead of verifying that the wood was sound;
- One image below is a piece of 2x4 sub-frame removed from beneath the water tank. The other image is the water tank now reinforced with new supporting wood. It's worth noting that the old tank was sitting securely on a concrete pad.
We don't want a "reasonable price" from [redacted]. We want [redacted] do the job right this time, on their coin. Why should we pay for their [redacted] work and [redacted] which have caused us a lot of grief? Let them return and install the 5 m of 50 mm drain pipe that they should have installed at the beginning. Do the job right this time. Do not repeat the above errors.