Gary & Sons Inc

March 8, 2018Revdex.com 400 Holiday Drive, Suite 220 Pittsburgh, PA 15220 412-456-2700Re: Response to Complaint [redacted]Attn: [redacted],Opening:it is not surprising that this customer continues to badger us with complaints at every place they can think of, Social Media,...

Angie's List, and now the Revdex.com seven years later. Let me start by saying we have done everything for this customer that could be expected of us and much morel The thing this customer doesn't seem to understand is the manufacture is responsible for the product they release for public sale, not the dealership that sold unknowingly, a faulty product. This customer should have gone after the manufacture within the first three years of ownership; we would have supported them in their case. Seven years later, they don't have a case. Compare this case to that of the Automotive Lemon Law, a plaintiff sues the manufacture of the lemon vehicle, NOT the dealership that sold it! Why this customer thinks we should bail out the factory for their irresponsibility to stand behind their product, we don't have the answer. But surely we cannot financially eat the costs on every faulty product that comes through our dealership. If this were the case, at what point would the manufacture become responsible for its own products? I think the Revdex.com should understand our situation and find Gary & Sons to be non-negligent or responsible for a product we did not manufacture!Our Actions:The [redacted] Company was always one of the most respected HVAC manufacturers in the business. That's why Gary & Sons, Inc. chose to be the dealership in this area. We maintained a good business relationship for many years, until we began to have reliability issues with the [redacted] products.As a [redacted] dealer, we took great pride in being able to provide a quality product along with great customer service. We were deeply disappointed when [redacted] decided not to stand by their dealerships including us when the dependability of their products started becoming a major issue. We cut the [redacted] products from our available product line as soon as we recognized that the service calls had become what we felt to be, excessive. This was no comfort to our customers that have already purchased [redacted] equipment but in actuality we should not be held responsible for a product Gary & Sons, Inc. purchased and sold in good faith. Gary & Sons, Inc. did everything a dealer could do, including answering every call professionally and putting as much pressure on the [redacted] manufacture as we possibly could. We were able to resolve all issues with this customer's boiler and we were able to utilize the warranty on the product for the full five year period, causing no extra billing to the customer. The only extra billing this customer received was for items such as annual maintenance, non-covered warranty items, and services performed after the warranty period had expired, it is unreasonable to expect cost-free services beyond the warranty period.We regret that this customer has continued to have problems with her system, but believe that we did everything we reasonably could to keep her system operating. We even offered to install a new Lennox system, waiving all labor and installation charges, but she has since decided to purchase a system from another dealership.Sincerely,Kurt W[redacted]Service Manager & Owner

Revdex.com:
I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted], and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
Firstly, the business FAILED to meet expectations.  My/our expectation was to have a reliable boiler.  After almost three dozen (i.e. 34) service calls, it was still not operating properly.  We exhibited exceptional patience, and spent a lot of money (over $15,000) for the boiler, parts and labor.  In addition to the inconvenience and expense, we suffered great stress not knowing when it would fail again.I refute the business' assertion that I "badgered" it on social media or elsewhere.  I do not post to any social media. However, I gave a completely accurate and factual review on Angie's List, which stated that deficiencies of the boiler and the many futile attempts by Gary & Sons to repair.  (I admit that the business generally responded professionally to my numerous service calls.)I reject that notion that this situation is similar to the "auto lemon law."  There is no such "law" for consumers aside from the auto industry.  I DID contact the manufacturer after 2-1/ years to seek relief, but never received a response.  What must be noted is that Gary & Sons recommended this brand ([redacted]), and won the bid from me based on its assertion that it stood behind any product it sold and installed.  Gary & Sons did not do this.As it admitted many times, Gary & Sons knew early on that this was a defective product.  Its Sale Manager bought the same brand and soon replaced it.  As the business admits, it experienced difficulty in dealing with its supplier, i.e. [redacted], such that it soon terminated the relationship.  So, how was I as a consumer to be able to deal with [redacted].I also dismiss Gary & Sons assertion that it offered to replace the boiler.  It was only recently that Gary & Sons bid to replace it (after almost 7 years of continuous failures).  Although it stated that its bid was "discounted" to eliminate labor cost, this is not credible.  We accepted a bid from another HVAC contractor that was similar in price and with a comparable boiler.  (In addition, the other contractor offered to "clean up" the purported "mess" of pipes, etc.)  Essentially, Gary & ons did not offer anything to remedy the situation.I could specify much more, but this seems to be enough.  The bottom line is that I expected a reliable boiler for the money I spebt. I did not get what I expected.  I further believe that I was much more patient and tolerating than most any other consumer.  I believe that soon after the numerous service calls in the first year of use, Gary & Sons should have replaced what it sold with another, reliable model of boiler.
Regards,
[redacted]

I would like to respond to complaint [redacted] that has beensubmitted against Gary & Sons, Inc. on 3/13/2015. I have read thecomplaint, researched our records and went over the details with ourService Manager, [redacted]. I would like to reply with just thefacts as our records show, but I found...

some of the statements andrequests in this complaint to be absurd and worthy of a reply.In response to her first sentence, she states she had yearlymaintenance on her boiler. According to our records she had noservice performed on her boiler from its original install date of9/13/2010 until 8/15/2014, which equates to four full heatingseasons. This record of non-service would easily terminate herextended warranty if the warranty company were to request suchinformation. Annual service is a requirement to keep her warrantyintact.Next the customer states, the first repair man didn’t do the properdiagnostics after servicing, causing her boiler to catch fire. Quitethe accusation but I must question, where did she get herinformation? Contrarily, our service tech spent three and one halfhours cleaning and servicing her boiler and he completed his serviceby performing a flue analysis. This flue analysis provides us with aprintout sheet (on file) that showed the customer’s boiler burningin ideal parameters. The charge for this customer’s service call was$160.00. This is our standard flat-rate service charge for an oilboiler in her location, but this was no ordinary service callconsidering how dirty this boiler was and the amount of time spentcleaning it. We could have easily added an extra charge for cleaningsuch a neglected boiler.Our second service call was for a no-heat on a Sunday, 10/12/14.Investigating the cause of the sooting and smoke problem, ourservice technician found the insulation and fire-wall located insidethe combustion chamber had collapsed. Our technician did all hecould that day to get the boiler in operation but a new insulationand fire wall kit would need to be ordered. The customer’s firstservice call on 8/15/2014 carried our 30 day service warranty. Thissecond call was made 58 days later, long past our 30 day warrantyperiod, but we chose to cover this service anyway.Moving on to the third service call; this customer states: “The 3rdrepair man sent to repair furnace because the wall in boiler wasbroken due to flame being set to high came and left his entiretoolbag...” The wall in the boiler was broken because the flame wasset too high? Where did she get this information? The thirdtechnician was dispatched to her house to install the new insulationand target wall kit to replace the damaged unit found three daysearlier or did she already forget? That was the reason for thesmoke, the sooting and her calling 911 The most probable reasonthat the target wall and insulation failed was the boiler had notbeen serviced for four years. Target walls normally have a lifeexpectancy of ten years and this is why the warranty companiesrequire annual service. As for the service tech’s tool set beingleft behind, this is trivial and irrelevant to this complaint. Thisservice was completed, an analyses was performed and the boiler wasback in proper working order. (analysis printout available)Summing this up, we serviced this customer’s furnace once andrepaired it once for a total cost of $160.00. Concerning her currentissue with her boiler, she was quoted sios.oo for us to perform adiagnostic; which would cover the expense to find out why it waslocking out. For $160.00 she could have purchased a complete serviceon her boiler. The service was recommended by our service managerdue to it being one of the coldest winters on record and her boilerjust got worked very hard for 5 months. Now she is not sure if shecan trust our work. Does she have a warranty if she goes withsomebody else; I can’t answer that and she will have to get thatanswer from her new contractor.Her desired settlement; she would like to have a replacement boilerbeing her unit caught fire and has not worked right since theinitial service. Reimbursement for thermostats and initial service.I don’t feel that I should be having this many issues with a $6000purchase. Being that I wanted to make sure that I wouldn’t have anyproblems with the furnace over the winter and it was safe is why Ihad them do the service work to begin with and every nightmare thatcould have happened, did happen.This lady is being completely ridiculous in her requests. We lefther boiler in perfect operating condition after both service calls.Only delay in her service was for three days when we needed to orderparts. Her current problems have no relation to our past service andwe will testify to that. We treated this customer professionally andfairly. She feels her furnace should never need service, have aproblem or break down. In the real world, boilers break down andthey need periodic service. With that said, Gary & Sons, Inc. has nointentions in offering any type of settlement and since our servicedepartment can’t seem to please this customer we no longer wish tobe her servicing contractor.Sincerely.[redacted]Customer Relations Manager

Review: I had a yearly maintenance done on my 4 year old hot water boiler. The first repair man didn't do a proper diagnostics after doing the service work which in turn caused my boiler to catch fire, I had to call 911. This service took over 4 hours. He was too busy on his cell phone and smoking. The 2nd repair man sent on the day of fire was vacuuming up soot in boiler and the vacuum malfunctioned and he did not realize black soot was already all through my house. He only cleaned the pile up by furnace. The 3rd repair man sent to repair furnace because the wall in boiler was broken due to flame being set to high came and left his entire toolbag and some other tools that he carried in to do the repair. His boss actually had to call me the next morning and ask if he could come and get his tools because he couldn't do his job without his tools and that he didn't know how that could have happened. I have been without heat numerous times throughout the winter because my boiler keeps going into a " hard lockout" which I have been resetting because I had called them again after they repaired it in October and told them and the repair man told me how to reset it. He also suggested I have my thermostats replaced which I did. I called them this morning because the boiler has been going into lockout for the last week. They wanted to charge me $105 for a service call and I didn't know if I called someone else if it would void any warranty being that I purchased boiler from them, but I do NOT feel they can fix it correctly nor do I feel that I should have to pay for a service charge. I am not sure if any damage is done to my boiler but I do not have any confidence in their repair work.Desired Settlement: My desired outcome would be to have a replacement installed being that the one I have has caught fire and has not worked right since the initial service. Reimbursement for thermostats and initial service. I am also still paying on this boiler being that it was financed. I don't feel that I should be having this many issues with a $6000 purchase. Being that I wanted to make sure that I wouldn't have any problems with the furnace over the winter and it was safe is why I had them do the service work to begin with and every nightmare that could have happened, did happen.

Business

Response:

I would like to respond to complaint [redacted] that has beensubmitted against Gary & Sons, Inc. on 3/13/2015. I have read thecomplaint, researched our records and went over the details with ourService Manager, [redacted]. I would like to reply with just thefacts as our records show, but I found some of the statements andrequests in this complaint to be absurd and worthy of a reply.In response to her first sentence, she states she had yearlymaintenance on her boiler. According to our records she had noservice performed on her boiler from its original install date of9/13/2010 until 8/15/2014, which equates to four full heatingseasons. This record of non-service would easily terminate herextended warranty if the warranty company were to request suchinformation. Annual service is a requirement to keep her warrantyintact.Next the customer states, the first repair man didn’t do the properdiagnostics after servicing, causing her boiler to catch fire. Quitethe accusation but I must question, where did she get herinformation? Contrarily, our service tech spent three and one halfhours cleaning and servicing her boiler and he completed his serviceby performing a flue analysis. This flue analysis provides us with aprintout sheet (on file) that showed the customer’s boiler burningin ideal parameters. The charge for this customer’s service call was$160.00. This is our standard flat-rate service charge for an oilboiler in her location, but this was no ordinary service callconsidering how dirty this boiler was and the amount of time spentcleaning it. We could have easily added an extra charge for cleaningsuch a neglected boiler.Our second service call was for a no-heat on a Sunday, 10/12/14.Investigating the cause of the sooting and smoke problem, ourservice technician found the insulation and fire-wall located insidethe combustion chamber had collapsed. Our technician did all hecould that day to get the boiler in operation but a new insulationand fire wall kit would need to be ordered. The customer’s firstservice call on 8/15/2014 carried our 30 day service warranty. Thissecond call was made 58 days later, long past our 30 day warrantyperiod, but we chose to cover this service anyway.Moving on to the third service call; this customer states: “The 3rdrepair man sent to repair furnace because the wall in boiler wasbroken due to flame being set to high came and left his entiretoolbag...” The wall in the boiler was broken because the flame wasset too high? Where did she get this information? The thirdtechnician was dispatched to her house to install the new insulationand target wall kit to replace the damaged unit found three daysearlier or did she already forget? That was the reason for thesmoke, the sooting and her calling 911 The most probable reasonthat the target wall and insulation failed was the boiler had notbeen serviced for four years. Target walls normally have a lifeexpectancy of ten years and this is why the warranty companiesrequire annual service. As for the service tech’s tool set beingleft behind, this is trivial and irrelevant to this complaint. Thisservice was completed, an analyses was performed and the boiler wasback in proper working order. (analysis printout available)Summing this up, we serviced this customer’s furnace once andrepaired it once for a total cost of $160.00. Concerning her currentissue with her boiler, she was quoted sios.oo for us to perform adiagnostic; which would cover the expense to find out why it waslocking out. For $160.00 she could have purchased a complete serviceon her boiler. The service was recommended by our service managerdue to it being one of the coldest winters on record and her boilerjust got worked very hard for 5 months. Now she is not sure if shecan trust our work. Does she have a warranty if she goes withsomebody else; I can’t answer that and she will have to get thatanswer from her new contractor.Her desired settlement; she would like to have a replacement boilerbeing her unit caught fire and has not worked right since theinitial service. Reimbursement for thermostats and initial service.I don’t feel that I should be having this many issues with a $6000purchase. Being that I wanted to make sure that I wouldn’t have anyproblems with the furnace over the winter and it was safe is why Ihad them do the service work to begin with and every nightmare thatcould have happened, did happen.This lady is being completely ridiculous in her requests. We lefther boiler in perfect operating condition after both service calls.Only delay in her service was for three days when we needed to orderparts. Her current problems have no relation to our past service andwe will testify to that. We treated this customer professionally andfairly. She feels her furnace should never need service, have aproblem or break down. In the real world, boilers break down andthey need periodic service. With that said, Gary & Sons, Inc. has nointentions in offering any type of settlement and since our servicedepartment can’t seem to please this customer we no longer wish tobe her servicing contractor.Sincerely.[redacted]Customer Relations Manager

Review: the outside wood burner has not worked right since I bought it 3 years ago. they replaced the control board 3 times and still dont work.Desired Settlement: I would like a full refund of my money

Business

Response:

Purchased his Central Boiler on 9-21-2011. Installed it himself.

Review: I contracted Gary And Sons to estimate the cost of installing a Lennox Minni-Split systemModel#MS&-HO-30P1A in my home. After agreeing to the cost the contractor installed the heat pump on or around 03/07/2013. I had to call them back twice due to the temperature fluctuations on the heating side.The problem was not solved until 03/11/2013.The thermostat was never moved from the shipping location. All went well until spring and summer arrived. I found that the unit was cooling but not taking the humidity out of the house. We were cold and clammy. I again called Gary and Sons and described the problem over the phone.They sent a technician out and he checked the pressures of the coolant and in general the systems working order. The Technician said all was fine. The problem was due to a damp spring.I have a weather station in the living room and it would show a temperature of 70 degrees @ 68% humidity. In order to reduce the humidity I had to turn down the temperature giving us a cold and clammy feeling. I called again right before the Fourth of July. In the mean time I bought a dehumidifier and placed it in our living room. It brought the humidity down to a acceptable level of 51%. Again the technician showed up and said the unit was working fine. *ot accepting this conclusion I called again and scheduled for the estimator and their main technician to look at it.They showed up and after taking readings they said the it was working fine and that they would call Lennox up and speak with them. I received a call from [redacted] the estimator and he told me that due to the amount of trees surrounding my home, my location, damp summer etc the unit was working fine. He also said that I could purchase a whole house dehumidifier to fix the problem. The funny thing is that the unit is advertised as having a dehumidifier, along with a fan option, AC and Heating.Desired Settlement: The Unit has not cooled or dehumidified as advertised.

Business

Response:

We have received your letter pertaining to [redacted] complaint about his mini-split system that we sold and installed for him back in February of this year. He has also submitted a complaint to the Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General for the identical issue. Considering that the complaints are one in the same, I would like to respond to the Revdex.com by including a copy of our letter to the Attorney General's office with this one. To summarize the enclosed response, Mr. [redacted] does not have a legitimate complaint regarding his system's performance. He was sold a Lennox mini-split air conditioner/heat pump system to help heat and cool his home. This system was tested by our service technicians in July and again in August and has been found to be operating within manufacturer's specifications and to be cooling flawlessly. Our response to Mr. [redacted] complaint that his system will not dehumidify his house properly is that while his system has the ability to dehumidify in the cooling mode, it was not sold as a dehumidifier nor will it take the place of one. Mr. [redacted] did not express any need for a dehumidifier when we sold him this unit. Service Consultant cc: Bureau

Consumer

Response:

This is my response to Gary and Sons letter to the Revdex.com written on 09/27/2013. My complaint being is that the referred mentioned air conditioner/Heat Pump does not dissipate the humidity from my home. Before going on I would like to give the definition of air conditioning according to Webster Online: Air conditioning is the dehumidification of indoor air for thermal comfort. In a broader sense, the term can refer to any form of cooling, heating, ventilation, or disinfection that modifies the condition of air. An air conditioner (often referred to as AC or air con.) is an appliance, system, or machine designed to stabilize the air temperature and humidity within an area (used for cooling as well as heating depending on the air properties at a given time), typically using a refrigeration cycle commonly for comfort cooling in buildings and motor vehicles. The letter states that I bought it to help heat/cool my home. This is not accurate. I will say the heating end of it would be correct, as that part is a bonus. But to say I bought it to help cool my home is incorrect. I specifically bought the heat pump to air condition my home. I had laminate flooring installed and, in order to protect it, a conditioned atmosphere had to be met, plus my own comfort level. I had no means at all to keep my home air conditioned because I have no duct work what so ever. I have ceiling radiant heat, thus nullifying the need for duct work. In researching methods to condition my home it seemed the mini-split was a good alternative to my problem. Gary and Sons' letter also states that the unit is working according to Lennox specifications. That may be but it is far from what Lennox stated in their brochure. Also from my discussion with [redacted].(Estimator/Salesman), Mr [redacted] had an issue with the sizing of the unit. His concern was because my great room, which is 30x30 or 900 sq feet, had at the *orth end thermal-pane windows from floor to ceiling--12 feet at the peek and 7 foot 6” at the side walls. In determining his estimate, the results were placed at a 23,400 btu/hr system. Mr [redacted] stated to me that it would be wiser to go with a 30,000 btu/hr system due to the windows. At that point my concern was an overkill of the system ie “cooling too fast before the room could be eliminated of humidity” and asked him if this would be a problem? Mr [redacted] response was that it would not be an issue. As far as my expressing a need for a dehumidifier was not a concern on my part, because a properly functioning A/C system will illuminate humidity. In fact the units brochure advertised that the unit contained a dehumidifier. Furthermore, the mini-split comes installed with a condensate line which carries the excess water from the inside of the house to the outside. Why would a unit carry such a line if there is no claim of dehumidification? Gary and Sons had us place a bucket under the line out to see if any water was being discharged. The result was absolutely no water...my conclusion—no water vapor is being pulled out of the air. To summarize Mr [redacted] and his letter is imprecise. Regards, [redacted]

Business

Response:

In response to our most recent phone conversation concerning [redacted]'s unresolved complaint, I am including a copy of a proposal that we are sending him for the installation of a whole house dehumidifier. This is what we originally suggested to Mr. [redacted] as a solution for his high humidity problem back in August, but I don't believe a written proposal was ever given. I would hope that Mr. [redacted] would take advantage of our offer.

Customer Relations Manager

Consumer

Response:

After reviewing Gary and Sons installation of my mini-split systems (see attached photo) condensate line and line sets, it would be a abominable decision to allow them back into my home for any sort of reason. Including forthcoming maintenance. I now must hire a contractor to replace their installed condensate line and have it routed to the outside of my home, where it should have placed in the beginning. In fact their proposal stated that it was to be routed to the basement of my home and connected to my existing sewer line.(I am not even certain if their installation is legitimate or not with today’s construction regulations) As the photo shows their installed line runs horizontal to the building floor joists and dumps into a vent line which also will have to be replaced. The insulation on the line sets have been damaged to the point I will also have to pay to be fixed. I stand firm in that this system does not bring comfort to my living area as advertised by Lennox and Gary and Sons. [redacted]