Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2016/04/29) */
Contact Name and Title: [redacted], owner
Contact Phone: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Contact Email: [redacted]@hotmail.com
This customer brought this vehicle to us after another shop told them to replace the transmission due to repeated leaks. We did...
not test drive the vehicle due to the amount of fluid leaking out of the front of the transmission. We pulled the trans to verify where the leak was coming from (a bolt on the front pump) during inspection we noticed damage to the torque converter and the bushing it rides in (in the front pump). We also informed mr. [redacted] of the contaminants in his fluid, at which we also recommended a replacement transmission. We also told mr. [redacted] that we could replace the damaged pump and torque converter with rebuilt units supplied from one of Springfield's oldest and most reputable transmission parts suppliers (mid-america parts), along with a new filter and fresh fluid. The customer was informed that the warranty would only cover the functionality of the new parts that we installed, not the rest of the transmission. The dyno testing was simply to verify that it does shift and mainly to verify that it was no longer leaking......it does shift and doesn't leak anymore. Mr [redacted] was informed that this option was just a chance that could not gaurantee the function of a transmission that had been run low on fluid several times and had debris in the fluid.
All adaptive resets and computer relearn procedures posible on this vehicle have been performed several times and fluid level checked several times.
There are gear ratio fault codes setting indicating a slipping clutch, and also the scanner data for the clutch volume index for the direct clutch (the main forward clutch) to be at the maximum value, also indicating a slipping clutch. This CVI value means the transmission computer is trying to put as much pressure as possible to that clutch pack to prevent slipping, what this is doing is causing the mainline pressure, controled by the transmission computer, to be very high which is causing the bad clutch to intermitantly grab to hard (most likely due to the clutch coming apart and effectively having an inconsistent thickness) and causing the trans to stall. The hightened fluid pressure is also making it hard for the transmission computer to properly control the other clutch packs.
Long story short, mr. [redacted] opted for the cheaper repairs that came with risks. Unfortunately for everyone involved, it didn't have the end results we all hoped for.
The warrantys with this repair include:
no leaks (it no longer leaks)
Front pump operation (it works, if it didn't, the vehicle would not move, and it will move in all gears at all speeds)
Torque converter operation (vefied operation by monitoring data pids in the computer that uses transmission and engine speed sensors to calculate and control the slip speed and lock-up clutch operation, it is working fine both on and off the highway)
The problem with the transmission is damaged clutches, likely caused by the repeated low fluid level (caused by the leak) and fluid contamination (likely caused by damage caused by low fluid levels).
The best I can offer to this customer is a rebuilt transmission (to be rebuilt by ace transmission in Springfield, mo) at my wholesale cost + all applicable sales taxes and fluids, installed by my lead tech (a 20+ year veteran Chrysler tech) to install this Chrysler transmission. I can cut the labor to $50/hr instead of our standard $79/hr. This offer is being made in an effort to help this customer as much as I can, and to resolve this matter as quickly as possible. Due to me wanting this matter resolved asap, the offer is only good until 5/13/16. After that date the customer can just go somewhere else and pay full price as I will no longer wish to drag this situation out.
I dont have hard numbers in front of me at this time, but the total cost to mr. [redacted] for transmission replacement should be about $2500.
The warranty with the transmission replacement would then cover the entire transmission for 6 months or 6000 miles (this is the warranty offered by ace transmission)
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2016/05/01) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
I will not be bringing my van back to [redacted] and giving them more of my money. I do not know what all the technical details of the what the shop did mean, but I do know that the transmission was working fine before I brought it to them. [redacted] told me that there was metal shavings in the transmission fluid likely from the damaged torque converter, which was why they were wanting to replace that part. I did not see the damaged torque converter nor the shavings, so I took their word on it. There was no mention that these repairs might lead to the transmission needing to be replaced or that I had options outside of replacing the parts that they said needed replacing. To quote Mr. [redacted] after I received my van back, "Sometimes these things just don't go back together the same". I also did not have "repeated low" fluid levels, I noticed the leak on the garage floor before the fluid levels were ever low. I bought my own dipstick for the van to and kept the fluid full. Once the van was leaking badly (as in more than a very slow drip), it was no longer driven other than to get it to their shop.
Final Business Response /* (4000, 9, 2016/05/02) */
Where mr [redacted]'s heard "sometimes things just dont go back together the same" is beyond me, that is absolutely not what I said. Maybe thats how he interpreted what I said, I don't recall my exact words, but I can assure him, those are not my words.
As far as the severity of the leak, it was not a leak while sitting parked, it was a large leak when running that left a trail of fluid around my building and into my shop, after being driven to the shop......the fluid was very low!
By mr [redacted] own admission, this van had been to another shop a time or two (if not more) for apparently the same leak.
Mr [redacted] was ABSOLUTELY told the repairs were a risk and given the recommendation and quote for a reman transmission, just like the last shop he went to told him.
We have done repairs of this nature on other vehicles with great success, but sometimes the damage is just too great, and unfortunately, in these cases the only way to know would be a complete tear down for overhaul.
If there was any misunderstanding on mr [redacted]'s part I do apologize, but the risks were explained and other more expensive gauranteed fixes offered. At the end of the day, he made an unlucky choice I wish we would not have even offered in the hopes of saving him money, this is just another case of the people trying to help getting drug through the mud and someone not wanting to accept the outcome of their decision.
I sincerely hope mr [redacted] finds a shop that will make him happy with future auto repair needs as we can both agree that will not be [redacted] Automotive.
Good luck, and thank you to Mr. [redacted] for the opportunity to try to help, but obviously we are not going to be a good fit for eachother.
[redacted]
Final Consumer Response /* (2000, 11, 2016/05/04) */
(The consumer indicated he/she ACCEPTED the response from the business.)
It seems that we are at an impasse. I am certain of what mr. [redacted] said to me on the phone, but as I have no proof there is no sense in going back and forth and me wasting more of my time with this company. If they don't have the skills to replace parts in a transmission then they need to be honest about that up front. Had I been told that there was a risk of my transmission needing replaced, I would have just had them tighten the bolt, like the other place did and then promptly gotten rid of the van. I am sure it would be worth more with a leak than a broken transmission. Perhaps working on a transmission is a difficult thing (I am not a mechanic I don't know) and that is why the other shop was telling me to replace the transmission. I definitely did make a poor decision, I brought my vehicle to [redacted]!
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2017/07/05) */
Customer was told on phone diagnosis was $90/hour (our normal rate for european vehicles) and that in most cases 1 hour would figure out the issue. Unfortunately, his vehicle was not that easy and required significant disassembly and diagnosis...
to verify what was wrong. As the leading MINI repair center in the springfield area, we have seen many timing chain and guide failures. We also through years of experience with these cars know what when these failures happen, it sends debris through the oil pump causing the potential for deeper engine damage that we all know the customer would blame us for if we were to do just the bare minimum. The replacement of the oil pump and the chain (another thing our years of experience tells us will be stretched beyond manufacturers specifications). The oil pump and chain are replaced in conjunction with the timing chain, guides and tensioners. The diagnosis revealed that the engine would not run due to being out of time caused by a broken chain guide allowing excessive slop in the chain and subsequent jumping of teeth. Several things things were taken apart to do this diagnosis along with performing a cylinder leakdown test to verify that the valves in the cylinder head were not damaged and that this engine was a good candidate for repair rather than replacement. The repairs on the engine are very labor intensive using expensive tools that are only for that specific mini engine and uses original mini parts that are special order from an out of town mini dealer....all of which contributes to the expensive price for this repair. The repairs covered by this price allows us to be able to thoroughly repair the engine to the point that we can stand behind the repairs and the longevity of the engines future life.
The items removed/disassembled from the vehicle were left off due to it being pointless to spend more of his money on time to reassemble these couple items when they would just have to be taked right back off by us or another mechanic to complete the repairs, again taking more time costing him more money. I apologize it was not given back to you in condition you were ok with, we were just trying to save you money and us or the next mechanic work.
The customers complaint to me was that the repairs were more than he payed for the car. Another case of a customer being under the misconception that the purchase price of a car has any bearing at all on the repair price. There is a good reason European cars lose resale value so rapidly, because they are expensive to repair/maintain when they need it, and they will ALL need it.
I offered to buy the car from the customer since by his own admission the repairs cost more than the car was worth, he declined in a very rude manner instead of just saying no.
I was not at my shop when he picked up his vehicle, but am told by my service manager that he was acting very rudely in my front office full of other customers who commented about how rude he was acting.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 8, 2017/07/07) */
[redacted]Document Attached[redacted]
Please see Facebook documentation. Owner originally said car was not put back together because they were not informed we were picking it up until the "tow truck arrived". When he was cornered with reply that diagnostic work was paid for 3 days in advance of tow truck returning for vehicle, he decided car was not put together due to it being more work and more cost. The vehicle should be returned to the customer in the same shape it was in when it was delivered to the mechanic shop. It should not be in worse condition. He can make this right by refunding diagnostic fee or putting vehicle back together without charge. And, he never informed that diagnostic feel would be in excess of $90. He mislead us, charged us triple the amount and left vehicle in total disarray.
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2016/04/29) */
Contact Name and Title: [redacted], owner
Contact Phone: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Contact Email: [redacted]@hotmail.com
This customer brought this vehicle to us after another shop told them to replace the transmission due to repeated leaks. We did...
not test drive the vehicle due to the amount of fluid leaking out of the front of the transmission. We pulled the trans to verify where the leak was coming from (a bolt on the front pump) during inspection we noticed damage to the torque converter and the bushing it rides in (in the front pump). We also informed mr. [redacted] of the contaminants in his fluid, at which we also recommended a replacement transmission. We also told mr. [redacted] that we could replace the damaged pump and torque converter with rebuilt units supplied from one of Springfield's oldest and most reputable transmission parts suppliers (mid-america parts), along with a new filter and fresh fluid. The customer was informed that the warranty would only cover the functionality of the new parts that we installed, not the rest of the transmission. The dyno testing was simply to verify that it does shift and mainly to verify that it was no longer leaking......it does shift and doesn't leak anymore. Mr [redacted] was informed that this option was just a chance that could not gaurantee the function of a transmission that had been run low on fluid several times and had debris in the fluid.
All adaptive resets and computer relearn procedures posible on this vehicle have been performed several times and fluid level checked several times.
There are gear ratio fault codes setting indicating a slipping clutch, and also the scanner data for the clutch volume index for the direct clutch (the main forward clutch) to be at the maximum value, also indicating a slipping clutch. This CVI value means the transmission computer is trying to put as much pressure as possible to that clutch pack to prevent slipping, what this is doing is causing the mainline pressure, controled by the transmission computer, to be very high which is causing the bad clutch to intermitantly grab to hard (most likely due to the clutch coming apart and effectively having an inconsistent thickness) and causing the trans to stall. The hightened fluid pressure is also making it hard for the transmission computer to properly control the other clutch packs.
Long story short, mr. [redacted] opted for the cheaper repairs that came with risks. Unfortunately for everyone involved, it didn't have the end results we all hoped for.
The warrantys with this repair include:
no leaks (it no longer leaks)
Front pump operation (it works, if it didn't, the vehicle would not move, and it will move in all gears at all speeds)
Torque converter operation (vefied operation by monitoring data pids in the computer that uses transmission and engine speed sensors to calculate and control the slip speed and lock-up clutch operation, it is working fine both on and off the highway)
The problem with the transmission is damaged clutches, likely caused by the repeated low fluid level (caused by the leak) and fluid contamination (likely caused by damage caused by low fluid levels).
The best I can offer to this customer is a rebuilt transmission (to be rebuilt by ace transmission in Springfield, mo) at my wholesale cost + all applicable sales taxes and fluids, installed by my lead tech (a 20+ year veteran Chrysler tech) to install this Chrysler transmission. I can cut the labor to $50/hr instead of our standard $79/hr. This offer is being made in an effort to help this customer as much as I can, and to resolve this matter as quickly as possible. Due to me wanting this matter resolved asap, the offer is only good until 5/13/16. After that date the customer can just go somewhere else and pay full price as I will no longer wish to drag this situation out.
I dont have hard numbers in front of me at this time, but the total cost to mr. [redacted] for transmission replacement should be about $2500.
The warranty with the transmission replacement would then cover the entire transmission for 6 months or 6000 miles (this is the warranty offered by ace transmission)
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2016/05/01) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
I will not be bringing my van back to [redacted] and giving them more of my money. I do not know what all the technical details of the what the shop did mean, but I do know that the transmission was working fine before I brought it to them. [redacted] told me that there was metal shavings in the transmission fluid likely from the damaged torque converter, which was why they were wanting to replace that part. I did not see the damaged torque converter nor the shavings, so I took their word on it. There was no mention that these repairs might lead to the transmission needing to be replaced or that I had options outside of replacing the parts that they said needed replacing. To quote Mr. [redacted] after I received my van back, "Sometimes these things just don't go back together the same". I also did not have "repeated low" fluid levels, I noticed the leak on the garage floor before the fluid levels were ever low. I bought my own dipstick for the van to and kept the fluid full. Once the van was leaking badly (as in more than a very slow drip), it was no longer driven other than to get it to their shop.
Final Business Response /* (4000, 9, 2016/05/02) */
Where mr [redacted]'s heard "sometimes things just dont go back together the same" is beyond me, that is absolutely not what I said. Maybe thats how he interpreted what I said, I don't recall my exact words, but I can assure him, those are not my words.
As far as the severity of the leak, it was not a leak while sitting parked, it was a large leak when running that left a trail of fluid around my building and into my shop, after being driven to the shop......the fluid was very low!
By mr [redacted] own admission, this van had been to another shop a time or two (if not more) for apparently the same leak.
Mr [redacted] was ABSOLUTELY told the repairs were a risk and given the recommendation and quote for a reman transmission, just like the last shop he went to told him.
We have done repairs of this nature on other vehicles with great success, but sometimes the damage is just too great, and unfortunately, in these cases the only way to know would be a complete tear down for overhaul.
If there was any misunderstanding on mr [redacted]'s part I do apologize, but the risks were explained and other more expensive gauranteed fixes offered. At the end of the day, he made an unlucky choice I wish we would not have even offered in the hopes of saving him money, this is just another case of the people trying to help getting drug through the mud and someone not wanting to accept the outcome of their decision.
I sincerely hope mr [redacted] finds a shop that will make him happy with future auto repair needs as we can both agree that will not be [redacted] Automotive.
Good luck, and thank you to Mr. [redacted] for the opportunity to try to help, but obviously we are not going to be a good fit for eachother.
[redacted]
Final Consumer Response /* (2000, 11, 2016/05/04) */
(The consumer indicated he/she ACCEPTED the response from the business.)
It seems that we are at an impasse. I am certain of what mr. [redacted] said to me on the phone, but as I have no proof there is no sense in going back and forth and me wasting more of my time with this company. If they don't have the skills to replace parts in a transmission then they need to be honest about that up front. Had I been told that there was a risk of my transmission needing replaced, I would have just had them tighten the bolt, like the other place did and then promptly gotten rid of the van. I am sure it would be worth more with a leak than a broken transmission. Perhaps working on a transmission is a difficult thing (I am not a mechanic I don't know) and that is why the other shop was telling me to replace the transmission. I definitely did make a poor decision, I brought my vehicle to [redacted]!
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2017/07/05) */
Customer was told on phone diagnosis was $90/hour (our normal rate for european vehicles) and that in most cases 1 hour would figure out the issue. Unfortunately, his vehicle was not that easy and required significant disassembly and diagnosis...
to verify what was wrong. As the leading MINI repair center in the springfield area, we have seen many timing chain and guide failures. We also through years of experience with these cars know what when these failures happen, it sends debris through the oil pump causing the potential for deeper engine damage that we all know the customer would blame us for if we were to do just the bare minimum. The replacement of the oil pump and the chain (another thing our years of experience tells us will be stretched beyond manufacturers specifications). The oil pump and chain are replaced in conjunction with the timing chain, guides and tensioners. The diagnosis revealed that the engine would not run due to being out of time caused by a broken chain guide allowing excessive slop in the chain and subsequent jumping of teeth. Several things things were taken apart to do this diagnosis along with performing a cylinder leakdown test to verify that the valves in the cylinder head were not damaged and that this engine was a good candidate for repair rather than replacement. The repairs on the engine are very labor intensive using expensive tools that are only for that specific mini engine and uses original mini parts that are special order from an out of town mini dealer....all of which contributes to the expensive price for this repair. The repairs covered by this price allows us to be able to thoroughly repair the engine to the point that we can stand behind the repairs and the longevity of the engines future life.
The items removed/disassembled from the vehicle were left off due to it being pointless to spend more of his money on time to reassemble these couple items when they would just have to be taked right back off by us or another mechanic to complete the repairs, again taking more time costing him more money. I apologize it was not given back to you in condition you were ok with, we were just trying to save you money and us or the next mechanic work.
The customers complaint to me was that the repairs were more than he payed for the car. Another case of a customer being under the misconception that the purchase price of a car has any bearing at all on the repair price. There is a good reason European cars lose resale value so rapidly, because they are expensive to repair/maintain when they need it, and they will ALL need it.
I offered to buy the car from the customer since by his own admission the repairs cost more than the car was worth, he declined in a very rude manner instead of just saying no.
I was not at my shop when he picked up his vehicle, but am told by my service manager that he was acting very rudely in my front office full of other customers who commented about how rude he was acting.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 8, 2017/07/07) */
[redacted]Document Attached[redacted]
Please see Facebook documentation. Owner originally said car was not put back together because they were not informed we were picking it up until the "tow truck arrived". When he was cornered with reply that diagnostic work was paid for 3 days in advance of tow truck returning for vehicle, he decided car was not put together due to it being more work and more cost. The vehicle should be returned to the customer in the same shape it was in when it was delivered to the mechanic shop. It should not be in worse condition. He can make this right by refunding diagnostic fee or putting vehicle back together without charge. And, he never informed that diagnostic feel would be in excess of $90. He mislead us, charged us triple the amount and left vehicle in total disarray.