Lil' Moe's Garage

In response to this complaint you will find all of the records for this vehicle attached in PDF format. The only part we supplied was the clutch master cylinder installed on March 7, 2014 and as I stated before, that was replaced after it was discovered that the part had been contaminated with debris from a rotted fluid supply line and was an OEM Infinity part that was purchased through the same supplier the customer purchased his clutch and slave cylinder from. We did verify that the parts supplied were made for his year, make and model vehicle. When a customer chooses to supply their own parts, beyond verifying the application is correct, there is no possible way we could know if those parts would perform as advertised to the customer. Our usual parts supplier provides us with specific warranty protections for each part we provide and in many cases, that protection exceeds those offered directly by the parts manufacturer. That coverage does not extend to parts provided by the customer. In October of 2013, our warranty for work performed utilizing parts provided by the customer would have been 12,000 miles or 12 moths, whichever occurred first. The warranty in that case would be limited to a failure with the installation of those parts and does not apply to a failure of the part or a failure of the part to perform as expected.This customer returned to our facility to have high performance, aftermarket brake rotors installed on April 11 of 2014, which he again, he purchased online and provided himself. There was no mention at that time of clutch problems or transmission noise and none was noted during the road test following the brake repairs. What is noteworthy is that at the time this repair was performed, the vehicle had already accumulated nearly 9,000 miles since the clutch had been installed and almost 2,000 miles since we replaced the clutch master cylinder. That was the last time we had seen that vehicle and that was over a year ago.The customer states we refuse to accept responsibility for this but after numerous exchanges we still have no idea what it is that we are supposed to accept responsibility for? The nature of his current failure has not been disclosed to us, no one has established how this failure is related to the work we performed and the customer never requested warranty relief even if it did pertain. The current mileage has not been disclosed and no copies of the repairs reportedly made by this other shop have been provided.I agree the issue remains unresolved but in several exchanges, the customer has provided no additional information beyond his initial complaint despite our requests for a description of the failure, the mileage of the vehicle and whether this “other repair facility” feels it is related to the parts provided by the customer or with the quality of the installation itself.  In the absence of such basic information, it is impossible to move forward on this.

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted], and have determined that this proposed action would not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.In the entire explanation from the shop, the main message is that the shop takes zero accountability for any of the work that was completed. As a customer, it is obvious that I will not have the expertise to complete repairs and trust a mechanic to do so 100%. If its not 100%, there needs to be some form of accountability. It is easy to place blame on another company, provider, or even the customer, but at the end of the day, what you deliver to the customer needs to be fully functional and working 100%, even if at the expense of the shop. It is incorrect to say that you completed a repair out of goodwill, especially when you delivered a faulty installation. After the initial clutch installation my car's clutch pedal had completely lost its pressure that I had to call a tow truck to have the car towed back to the shop.If the shop did not have the proper expertise to complete the repair as needed, or even had a slight doubt whether the product(s) will work properly, then it has the responsibility to inform the customer and not proceed. I originally came to get an aftermarket clutch installed and what I got in return was an entire clutch and transmission that failed repeatedly due to its inability to maintain pressure and the significant chatter that would be created from the entire system. I got so tired of going back to the shop multiple times to have them look at the issue I dealt with it until I was finally on my last straw.The correct solution would have just been to install the OEM slave and master cylinder straight from the auto manufacturer, which I had to go to another shop to have them realize the real issue.Like I originally said, I spent a lot of time and money with the end result that a shop will not take any responsibility for the work completed.Regards,[redacted]

The customer in question came to us in October of 2013 with high performance clutch components he had purchased online and asked us to install them. Please note, the customer was not replacing a failed clutch assembly, he merely wanted  to install a clutch that was meant to provide higher...

performance than the original clutch was designed for. We installed his parts and within a day or two,  there was a noticeable chatter from the clutch at rest. We contacted the manufacturer that he purchased his parts from and found that they made a concentric slave cylinder/throwout bearing specifically designed for use with that clutch. Apparently, the face of the bearing on the OEM slave cylinder would not properly contact the high performance clutch pressure plate that was installed.  We reviewed this information and looked at the manufacturer’s website with the customer. Approximately a week later, the customer arrived with the replacement slave cylinder he obtained from the same manufacturer. Despite the customer’s comments, the recommendation to replace the slave cylinder came from the clutch manufacturer, not from us.Although we had no financial obligation to do so, we removed the transmission for a second time and installed the slave cylinder at no charge to the customer just for customer good will. Please note, the new slave cylinder came complete with a new hose and bleeder fitting already attached to it along with instructions to remove and discard the OEM hoses. The choice to use those lines were predetermined by the manufacturer of the replacement part so we did not erroneously eliminate vital OEM hoses as was the customer’s contention in his complaint. We are not automotive engineers and as such, we do not question the directives and instructions of the qualified engineers that designed the parts used in repairs, we simply follow the installation instructions provided with those parts.   With the new slave cylinder installed, we bled the system and released the vehicle with no clutch chatter. Admittedly, we did have difficulty in bleeding the system but an internet search revealed numerous accounts of difficulties in bleeding the clutch for this vehicle year, make and model with a modified clutch so it didn’t really raise any eyebrows at the time.In March of 2014, after the customer had several incidents where the clutch pedal did not return to its proper rest position, we inspected the entire clutch system and found that the clutch master cylinder had been contaminated by debris from a failed hose that brings fluid from the clutch reservoir to the clutch master cylinder. The contaminated parts were shown to the customer and we did recommend replacing the clutch master rather than attempting to flush it because the design of the valve had a compensator built into it that would prevent us from being able to completely flush the contaminates from the assembly. We again contacted the manufacturer of the clutch system that he had already purchased for their recommendations and while they did not make a special clutch master cylinder for this arrangement, they did have OEM Infinity clutch master cylinders in stock since “so many people ended up replacing them after installing the clutches and slave cylinders”. With this new information from the manufacturer, we felt we now had a reasonable cause for the difficulties everyone seemed to experience when bleeding these systems. We installed the new clutch master cylinder, bled the system and when all seemed well, we again returned the car to its owner.The customer returned once more in April of 2014 with high performance brake rotors he had again, purchased online, and asked us to install them in place of the OEM brake rotors. We replaced the rotors as requested and after a brief road test, returned the vehicle to the customer. All seemed well and we had no further contact from this customer until he lodged his complaints this past Tuesday (4/21/15). He e-mailed us that morning and asked if his old parts were still available. We informed him that once he declined to take the parts when they were offered them to him at the conclusion of the repairs, we retained them for several more days just in case he changed his mind and then disposed of them. Wondering why he would ask for them now, we inquired as to what was going on.  It was then that he informed us about the negative reviews he posted to social media and with the Revdex.com.I’ve read the complaint multiple times and I still have no idea what he thinks we did or didn’t do. Frankly, his description of events is flawed and his contention that what we did for him somehow resulted in an internal failure of a manual transmission is just not sensible. A clutch assembly is located between the engine and transmission and is external of both. A failure of the clutch or an error in installation would render the car inoperable in a very short period of time and would still not cause an internal failure of a transmission unless total failure caused physical damage to the transmission case which does not seem to be what he is saying. If the customer was experiencing difficulties with the clutch I would think we would have heard something much sooner than this. An unfortunate truth of this industry is that many shops will trash the work of another business in order to “sell” their own repairs. It is not something we do, but we know it does exist. It is entirely possible that this is the case but I would think the customer would have given us a call with his complaints to see what, if anything we would or could do for him before taking this to the level of a one man mission to destroy our reputation by an means necessary.Every other review we have ever received on any site in the social media spectrum has been five stars with a hearty recommendation and we have worked very hard for each and every one of them. Every shop has installed a part that has failed at some time or another and whenever that has happened, we have stood firmly behind our warranty even when that meant dealing with an out of state repair facility because the customer had a problem while traveling. Very few shops I know of offer that level of support. I find it hard, however, to intelligently respond to a complaint such as this where I have not examined the vehicle nor have I been given the courtesy of discussing the issue with the customer or with the shop that allegedly claimed we may be responsible because we used parts the customer supplied or companion parts the same supplier recommended be used with those parts. It doesn’t even seem as if anyone is saying the clutch components were installed incorrectly just that the aftermarket parts somehow created a problem that resulted in transmission damage which is still, just as unlikely.At any rate, I would say that is the long and that short of it but I have to admit the whole thing is pretty long. Since the website would not let me post this online I am giving this to you as an initial reply.  As I said before, we have never had a complaint before so we are unclear what the process is at this point. I would be glad to speak with anyone that has additional questions for me.  I can be reached at this email address – [redacted]  by cell phone at [redacted], or at the business number ###-###-####.

In response to this complaint you will find all of the records for this vehicle attached in PDF format. The only part we supplied was the clutch master cylinder installed on March 7, 2014 and as I stated before, that was replaced after it was discovered that the part had been contaminated with debris from a rotted fluid supply line and was an OEM Infinity part that was purchased through the same supplier the customer purchased his clutch and slave cylinder from. We did verify that the parts supplied were made for his year, make and model vehicle. When a customer chooses to supply their own parts, beyond verifying the application is correct, there is no possible way we could know if those parts would perform as advertised to the customer. Our usual parts supplier provides us with specific warranty protections for each part we provide and in many cases, that protection exceeds those offered directly by the parts manufacturer. That coverage does not extend to parts provided by the customer. In October of 2013, our warranty for work performed utilizing parts provided by the customer would have been 12,000 miles or 12 moths, whichever occurred first. The warranty in that case would be limited to a failure with the installation of those parts and does not apply to a failure of the part or a failure of the part to perform as expected.This customer returned to our facility to have high performance, aftermarket brake rotors installed on April 11 of 2014, which he again, he purchased online and provided himself. There was no mention at that time of clutch problems or transmission noise and none was noted during the road test following the brake repairs. What is noteworthy is that at the time this repair was performed, the vehicle had already accumulated nearly 9,000 miles since the clutch had been installed and almost 2,000 miles since we replaced the clutch master cylinder. That was the last time we had seen that vehicle and that was over a year ago.The customer states we refuse to accept responsibility for this but after numerous exchanges we still have no idea what it is that we are supposed to accept responsibility for? The nature of his current failure has not been disclosed to us, no one has established how this failure is related to the work we performed and the customer never requested warranty relief even if it did pertain. The current mileage has not been disclosed and no copies of the repairs reportedly made by this other shop have been provided.I agree the issue remains unresolved but in several exchanges, the customer has provided no additional information beyond his initial complaint despite our requests for a description of the failure, the mileage of the vehicle and whether this “other repair facility” feels it is related to the parts provided by the customer or with the quality of the installation itself.  In the absence of such basic information, it is impossible to move forward on this.

Review: I strongly do not recommend these guys despite all the raving reviews, and in turn suggest anyone that has had a great initial experience and ended up with future problems to get a second opinion, as they come off as a great team but in my experience below ended up being a very poor choice -

I took my car in to have my clutch installed with aftermarket parts, in which they did so. The clutch kept having issues with pressure and they recommended I change the master and slave cylinder, which were also done with aftermarket parts. After installing these parts, I still had issues with the clutch pedal maintaining its pressure. The entire system also had a strange rattle during neutral that sounded like as if there were rocks rotating around and around. I dealt with this for over a year and a half afterwards off of the assumption that it was just "how it is" as they could not fix the issue.

Fast forward to recently. I took my car to another mechanic in which they quickly recognized the problem. All the aftermarket parts that were installed in my car were not only done improperly, but were not suited for my clutch as it involved removing a number of hoses that were important. I had to repurchase a stock slave and master cylinder, along with an entire new transmission due to the possibility that the install destroyed the transmission. This entire fix cost me $3000. My clutch and transmission now maintains pressure, has no rattling noise, and shifts smooth.

What upsets me the most in all this was not only the waste in time, but essentially that they never came to me to admit they didn't know what they were doing. On top of this, they never gave me the old parts they took out, in which my new mechanic informed me, could possibly have been reused and saved me some money. At what point in the install did it ever occur to them that perhaps they should give the customer options behind what they are asking them to do because essentially what was asked they either could not do, or did not understand?Desired Settlement: I would expect that this repair shop will not admit to their mistakes, along with possibly trying to cover up what they have done due to the amount of time that has already passed. This repair was done on 10/01/2013, however as I look online at records of other repairs they have completed for me it doesn't show. I am expecting a refund of all service costs, along with the possibility they originally damaged my transmission, which taking it to a second mechanic to get it fixed cost me a total of $3000.

Business

Response:

The customer in question came to us in October of 2013 with high performance clutch components he had purchased online and asked us to install them. Please note, the customer was not replacing a failed clutch assembly, he merely wanted to install a clutch that was meant to provide higher performance than the original clutch was designed for. We installed his parts and within a day or two, there was a noticeable chatter from the clutch at rest. We contacted the manufacturer that he purchased his parts from and found that they made a concentric slave cylinder/throwout bearing specifically designed for use with that clutch. Apparently, the face of the bearing on the OEM slave cylinder would not properly contact the high performance clutch pressure plate that was installed. We reviewed this information and looked at the manufacturer’s website with the customer. Approximately a week later, the customer arrived with the replacement slave cylinder he obtained from the same manufacturer. Despite the customer’s comments, the recommendation to replace the slave cylinder came from the clutch manufacturer, not from us.Although we had no financial obligation to do so, we removed the transmission for a second time and installed the slave cylinder at no charge to the customer just for customer good will. Please note, the new slave cylinder came complete with a new hose and bleeder fitting already attached to it along with instructions to remove and discard the OEM hoses. The choice to use those lines were predetermined by the manufacturer of the replacement part so we did not erroneously eliminate vital OEM hoses as was the customer’s contention in his complaint. We are not automotive engineers and as such, we do not question the directives and instructions of the qualified engineers that designed the parts used in repairs, we simply follow the installation instructions provided with those parts. With the new slave cylinder installed, we bled the system and released the vehicle with no clutch chatter. Admittedly, we did have difficulty in bleeding the system but an internet search revealed numerous accounts of difficulties in bleeding the clutch for this vehicle year, make and model with a modified clutch so it didn’t really raise any eyebrows at the time.In March of 2014, after the customer had several incidents where the clutch pedal did not return to its proper rest position, we inspected the entire clutch system and found that the clutch master cylinder had been contaminated by debris from a failed hose that brings fluid from the clutch reservoir to the clutch master cylinder. The contaminated parts were shown to the customer and we did recommend replacing the clutch master rather than attempting to flush it because the design of the valve had a compensator built into it that would prevent us from being able to completely flush the contaminates from the assembly. We again contacted the manufacturer of the clutch system that he had already purchased for their recommendations and while they did not make a special clutch master cylinder for this arrangement, they did have OEM Infinity clutch master cylinders in stock since “so many people ended up replacing them after installing the clutches and slave cylinders”. With this new information from the manufacturer, we felt we now had a reasonable cause for the difficulties everyone seemed to experience when bleeding these systems. We installed the new clutch master cylinder, bled the system and when all seemed well, we again returned the car to its owner.The customer returned once more in April of 2014 with high performance brake rotors he had again, purchased online, and asked us to install them in place of the OEM brake rotors. We replaced the rotors as requested and after a brief road test, returned the vehicle to the customer. All seemed well and we had no further contact from this customer until he lodged his complaints this past Tuesday (4/21/15). He e-mailed us that morning and asked if his old parts were still available. We informed him that once he declined to take the parts when they were offered them to him at the conclusion of the repairs, we retained them for several more days just in case he changed his mind and then disposed of them. Wondering why he would ask for them now, we inquired as to what was going on. It was then that he informed us about the negative reviews he posted to social media and with the Revdex.com.I’ve read the complaint multiple times and I still have no idea what he thinks we did or didn’t do. Frankly, his description of events is flawed and his contention that what we did for him somehow resulted in an internal failure of a manual transmission is just not sensible. A clutch assembly is located between the engine and transmission and is external of both. A failure of the clutch or an error in installation would render the car inoperable in a very short period of time and would still not cause an internal failure of a transmission unless total failure caused physical damage to the transmission case which does not seem to be what he is saying. If the customer was experiencing difficulties with the clutch I would think we would have heard something much sooner than this. An unfortunate truth of this industry is that many shops will trash the work of another business in order to “sell” their own repairs. It is not something we do, but we know it does exist. It is entirely possible that this is the case but I would think the customer would have given us a call with his complaints to see what, if anything we would or could do for him before taking this to the level of a one man mission to destroy our reputation by an means necessary.Every other review we have ever received on any site in the social media spectrum has been five stars with a hearty recommendation and we have worked very hard for each and every one of them. Every shop has installed a part that has failed at some time or another and whenever that has happened, we have stood firmly behind our warranty even when that meant dealing with an out of state repair facility because the customer had a problem while traveling. Very few shops I know of offer that level of support. I find it hard, however, to intelligently respond to a complaint such as this where I have not examined the vehicle nor have I been given the courtesy of discussing the issue with the customer or with the shop that allegedly claimed we may be responsible because we used parts the customer supplied or companion parts the same supplier recommended be used with those parts. It doesn’t even seem as if anyone is saying the clutch components were installed incorrectly just that the aftermarket parts somehow created a problem that resulted in transmission damage which is still, just as unlikely.At any rate, I would say that is the long and that short of it but I have to admit the whole thing is pretty long. Since the website would not let me post this online I am giving this to you as an initial reply. As I said before, we have never had a complaint before so we are unclear what the process is at this point. I would be glad to speak with anyone that has additional questions for me. I can be reached at this email address – [redacted] by cell phone at [redacted], or at the business number ###-###-####.

Consumer

Response:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted], and have determined that this proposed action would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.In the entire explanation from the shop, the main message is that the shop takes zero accountability for any of the work that was completed. As a customer, it is obvious that I will not have the expertise to complete repairs and trust a mechanic to do so 100%. If its not 100%, there needs to be some form of accountability. It is easy to place blame on another company, provider, or even the customer, but at the end of the day, what you deliver to the customer needs to be fully functional and working 100%, even if at the expense of the shop. It is incorrect to say that you completed a repair out of goodwill, especially when you delivered a faulty installation. After the initial clutch installation my car's clutch pedal had completely lost its pressure that I had to call a tow truck to have the car towed back to the shop.If the shop did not have the proper expertise to complete the repair as needed, or even had a slight doubt whether the product(s) will work properly, then it has the responsibility to inform the customer and not proceed. I originally came to get an aftermarket clutch installed and what I got in return was an entire clutch and transmission that failed repeatedly due to its inability to maintain pressure and the significant chatter that would be created from the entire system. I got so tired of going back to the shop multiple times to have them look at the issue I dealt with it until I was finally on my last straw.The correct solution would have just been to install the OEM slave and master cylinder straight from the auto manufacturer, which I had to go to another shop to have them realize the real issue.Like I originally said, I spent a lot of time and money with the end result that a shop will not take any responsibility for the work completed.Regards,[redacted]

Business

Response:

In response to this complaint you will find all of the records for this vehicle attached in PDF format. The only part we supplied was the clutch master cylinder installed on March 7, 2014 and as I stated before, that was replaced after it was discovered that the part had been contaminated with debris from a rotted fluid supply line and was an OEM Infinity part that was purchased through the same supplier the customer purchased his clutch and slave cylinder from. We did verify that the parts supplied were made for his year, make and model vehicle. When a customer chooses to supply their own parts, beyond verifying the application is correct, there is no possible way we could know if those parts would perform as advertised to the customer. Our usual parts supplier provides us with specific warranty protections for each part we provide and in many cases, that protection exceeds those offered directly by the parts manufacturer. That coverage does not extend to parts provided by the customer. In October of 2013, our warranty for work performed utilizing parts provided by the customer would have been 12,000 miles or 12 moths, whichever occurred first. The warranty in that case would be limited to a failure with the installation of those parts and does not apply to a failure of the part or a failure of the part to perform as expected.This customer returned to our facility to have high performance, aftermarket brake rotors installed on April 11 of 2014, which he again, he purchased online and provided himself. There was no mention at that time of clutch problems or transmission noise and none was noted during the road test following the brake repairs. What is noteworthy is that at the time this repair was performed, the vehicle had already accumulated nearly 9,000 miles since the clutch had been installed and almost 2,000 miles since we replaced the clutch master cylinder. That was the last time we had seen that vehicle and that was over a year ago.The customer states we refuse to accept responsibility for this but after numerous exchanges we still have no idea what it is that we are supposed to accept responsibility for? The nature of his current failure has not been disclosed to us, no one has established how this failure is related to the work we performed and the customer never requested warranty relief even if it did pertain. The current mileage has not been disclosed and no copies of the repairs reportedly made by this other shop have been provided.I agree the issue remains unresolved but in several exchanges, the customer has provided no additional information beyond his initial complaint despite our requests for a description of the failure, the mileage of the vehicle and whether this “other repair facility” feels it is related to the parts provided by the customer or with the quality of the installation itself. In the absence of such basic information, it is impossible to move forward on this.