Initial Business Response / [redacted] (1000, 5, 2015/02/17) */ To the [redacted] in response to the complaint filed by Mr. Jim and Donna Meyer, complaint case # [redacted] regarding "Chips in Concrete" Hawthorne Creek ***s submits the following: 1. The "Chips" in the concrete Mr. Meyer is... referring to are surface indentations about 3/8"-1/2" in diameter and 1/16"- 1/8" in depth and are a result of "Chert Rock" found in the aggregate used in the concrete mix from the batch plant. See [redacted] Email below: [redacted] 2/11/15 To: [redacted] Please email to J. Meyers Mr. Meyer, I have been reviewing the documentation on concrete that was placed on June 18 & 19 in [redacted] Subdivision. My review has included all of the delivery tickets, batch weights from the plant and weather reports from the days in question. I have also discussed the project with my Sales Manager, [redacted] who physically looked at the concrete. It appears that we are all on the same page that the issue with the slab is Aggregate Popouts. All quarries in Southwest Missouri have a stone in their geology called Chert. Chert is a hard, opaque rock composed of silica (chalcedony) with an amorphous or microscopically fine-grained texture. It occurs as nodules (flint) or, less often, in massive beds. The is a sedimentary type of rock that is lightweight and more absorptive than limestone. The reason these popouts occur is that when moisture collects on the surface, some of this moisture finds its way into the concrete. When the temperature drops below freezing, the chert that has been infiltrated by water expands - causing the aggregate to fracture and pop out of the concrete. In addition to the geology and climate issues of this region, adding too much water to the concrete, over-working the concrete (bringing this aggregate to the surface) and not applying a proper curing compound all increase the likelihood of chert popouts. This is why you can see a small, typically white, aggregate in the bottom of each popout. This is a very common issue in this part of the country and while we take certain steps to reduce the amount of chert in our mixes, it cannot be eliminated. The industry standard is below 3% and our quarries strictly adheres to that standard. Fortunately this is purely an aesthetic issue and should not affect the long term durability of the concrete itself. As previously stated, this is a common situation in this area due to the nature of the aggregates that are available. Here is a link to a specific document called Concrete In Practice. It is published by the [redacted] Association and deals directly with the issue of Aggregate Popouts. http://www.nrmca.org/aboutconcrete/cips/40p.pdf If there are any other questions I can answer, don't hesitate to call. [redacted] Vice President of Sales & Marketing [redacted] P: (***) [redacted] F: (***) [redacted] 2. At this time there are approximately 20+/- of these small indentations in his driveway, walkway and patio, over a 1,000 square feet of concrete. 3. This condition is not an isolated incident to the Meyer's. It can be seen throughout the area as a common occurrence including in the public sidewalk and in many of drives and walks of Mr. Meyer's neighbors throughout his community. 4. Mr. Meyer's concrete is structurally sound and is not weakened by this condition. Mr. Meyer is mistaken when he states that this condition will cause the concrete to deteriorate over the next 5 years and have to be replaced due to structural failure. Additional chips MAY occur later on but normally the majority will show up after the first winter. 5. We have offered to patch these small chips in the Spring of this year after the Winter has passed even though we are not obligated to. Mr. and Mrs. Meyer. They both initialed our ***owner Warranty Program at walk-thru which specifically states that chipping/cracking of concrete is common and that this condition is NOT WARRANTABLE. (See verbiage from our Warranty Program below.) *Seller warrants materials and workmanship for one (1) year from the date of close of escrow and will repair any material defect arising during such period without charge to Purchaser following written notice by Purchaser to Seller delivered within forty-five (45) days after defect arises. This warranty does not cover cracking, peeling or pitting of cement work, damage to concrete or asphalt due to ground settling, frost heave, road salts or other conditions beyond Sellers control, cracking of drywall due to wood shrinkage or ground settling, or material or labor supplied by Purchaser. [redacted] (a copy of this initialed Warranty Program is on file in our office and is available to the [redacted] upon request.) 6. Mr. Meyer has refused our offer and continues to pursue his complaint through the [redacted] and now the [redacted] for the complete removal and replacement of all his concrete. Even if Mr. Meyer chose to replace the concrete on his own there would be no guarantee from the concrete supplier that the same result would not occur. 7. Hawthorne Creek ***s is not obligated by contract, signed by Mr. & Mrs. Meyer, nor by industry standards to even further address this situation. Initial Consumer Rebuttal / [redacted] (3000, 7, 2015/02/18) */ Jim and Donna meyer responces to mr. [redacted] 1 In responce to 20 chips that's our point I tryed to explain to him,if he would look again today there is lots more 2 he compares my 7 month old concrete to 10 year old and 15 year old concrete.If he would come out of his office for himself he would see these drives are from roadsalt damage and have not been sealed 3 he missed my point again,we don't trust the concrete is sound,even if it is it will have to be replaced from all the chips > 4 We did not refuse anything we don't know where that came from,we're just trying to get him to come up with a solution He answers to what he wants to answer to,His manager says they are not responsible for the concrete just the house,it is no surprise to us they don't want to be responsible,that's their character,thanks Jim and Donna Final Business Response / [redacted] (4000, 12, 2015/02/20) */ The following comments are in response to Meyer's latest comments received by the [redacted] on Feb. 18, 2015: 1) On or about February 6, 2015, representatives from Hawthorne Creek ***s (***) (Builder) and [redacted] (Concrete Supplier) examined all of Mr. & Mrs. Meyers flatwork both front and back and at that time noted approx. 20+/- popouts in all of their concrete. If more popouts have occurred, as Mr. Meyers stated, we are unaware of this change in condition. Regardless, as per our purchase contract and industry standards, this condition is not warrantable. (See attachments) 2) We are not comparing his 7 month old concrete to 10-15 year old concrete as he states. We are comparing it to his neighbors and new and existing homes throughout the area. 3) Every article that we have read relating to popouts in concrete, states that "Most Pop-Outs are aesthetic defects that do not impact the structural performance of the concrete members." (taken from "Concrete in Practice" by the NRMCA). "The good news is that Pop-Outs in concrete are a cosmetic defect that doesn't affect the structural integrity of the slab. You can patch the small holes by cleaning out the loose material and filling each one with a concrete patching material." (taken from "Ask ***?, How to Repair Popouts in Concrete Patio Caused by Freezing") "Pop-Outs are a cosmetic distraction and typically do not affect the function or service of the flatwork." (taken from "Concrete Construction, Minimizing and Repairing Popouts"), "This is nothing to worry about since the integrity of the slab is not compromised." (taken from: " [redacted] on Concrete Surfaces"), "In as much as [redacted] (Illinois Dept. of Transportation) specifications permit to 5% deleterious material, Pop-Outs may occur. This condition is not grounds for rejection of the concrete." (taken from: "From the Findings of the [redacted] on durability, March 2012."). 4) On Item #6 of our first response, I stated that Mr. Meyers has refused our offer.... Mr. Meyers is correct, he did not refuse our offer at that time. I wrongfully assumed that because of his subsequent complaints to the [redacted] and***, that he was in fact, refusing our offer of patch repair. 5) It's not that [redacted] (Mr. [redacted] ) stated that "they are not responsible", it's that we stated, "Pop-Outs" are not warrantable. (see attached our "***'s ***owner Warranty Program disclaimer for cosmetic defects in Concrete", acknowledged by the initials of Donna Meyer, Jim Meyer and Regina [redacted] , President of ***). We have never treated Mr. & Mrs. Meyer "SMALL" as he states, if anything, we have gone above board over and over and over and over again throughout his entire building process to accommodate his incessant, aggressive attitude toward ***, our employees and our subcontractors. Because we again have spent an exhaustible effort addressing the Meyer's behavior, we are seriously considering rescinding our offer of patching his existing Pop-Outs in the Spring time. This is a non-warrantable issue and we are afraid that we are opening [redacted] over non-warrantable items that in good faith, we have attempted to address. [redacted] Comment - see attached documents Final Consumer Response / [redacted] (4200, 18, 2015/02/23) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) 1 mr [redacted] missed my point again our concerns are it going to and it is getting much worse as the weather gets colder. 2 the houses that were built the same time as ours has no chips 3 again the chips are getting worse 4 he said he was not the one that was going to patch it in the first place 4 I complained to [redacted] because he did not want to respond to issue other than we're not responsible 5 we just wanted to be treated fair,he talks about my behavior,lets talk about his behavier and how we were at my house because they would show up once a week and how they didn't have the knowledge to know how to put my house on my lot would cost thousands,how I got upset when their sales lady would bring people in our house without permission and I would find door unlocked,how they would check house and not know my vents were getting covered,where wre they when neighbors threaten to sue me,how their subs would complain about them,
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2015/02/17) */
To the [redacted] in response to the complaint filed by Mr. Jim and Donna Meyer, complaint case # [redacted] regarding "Chips in Concrete" Hawthorne Creek [redacted]s submits the following:
1. The "Chips" in the concrete Mr. Meyer is...
referring to are surface indentations about 3/8"-1/2" in diameter and 1/16"- 1/8" in depth and are a result of "Chert Rock" found in the aggregate used in the concrete mix from the batch plant. See [redacted] Email below:
[redacted]
[redacted]
2/11/15
To:[redacted]
Please email to J. Meyers
Mr. Meyer,
I have been reviewing the documentation on concrete that was placed on June 18 & 19 in [redacted] Subdivision. My review has included all of the delivery tickets, batch weights from the plant and weather reports from the days in question. I have also discussed the project with my Sales Manager, [redacted] who physically looked at the concrete.
It appears that we are all on the same page that the issue with the slab is Aggregate Popouts. All quarries in Southwest Missouri have a stone in their geology called Chert. Chert is a hard, opaque rock composed of silica (chalcedony) with an amorphous or microscopically fine-grained texture. It occurs as nodules (flint) or, less often, in massive beds. The is a sedimentary type of rock that is lightweight and more absorptive than limestone. The reason these popouts occur is that when moisture collects on the surface, some of this moisture finds its way into the concrete. When the temperature drops below freezing, the chert that has been infiltrated by water expands - causing the aggregate to fracture and pop out of the concrete. In addition to the geology and climate issues of this region, adding too much water to the concrete, over-working the concrete (bringing this aggregate to the surface) and not applying a proper curing compound all increase the likelihood of chert popouts. This is why you can see a small, typically white, aggregate in the bottom of each popout. This is a very common issue in this part of the country and while we take certain steps to reduce the amount of chert in our mixes, it cannot be eliminated. The industry standard is below 3% and our quarries strictly adheres to that standard.
Fortunately this is purely an aesthetic issue and should not affect the long term durability of the concrete itself. As previously stated, this is a common situation in this area due to the nature of the aggregates that are available.
Here is a link to a specific document called Concrete In Practice. It is published by the [redacted] Association and deals directly with the issue of Aggregate Popouts.
http://www.nrmca.org/aboutconcrete/cips/40p.pdf
If there are any other questions I can answer, don't hesitate to call.
[redacted]
Vice President of Sales & Marketing
[redacted]
P: ([redacted]
F: ([redacted]
2. At this time there are approximately 20+/- of these small indentations in his driveway, walkway and patio, over a 1,000 square feet of concrete.
3. This condition is not an isolated incident to the Meyer's. It can be seen throughout the area as a common occurrence including in the public sidewalk and in many of drives and walks of Mr. Meyer's neighbors throughout his community.
4. Mr. Meyer's concrete is structurally sound and is not weakened by this condition. Mr. Meyer is mistaken when he states that this condition will cause the concrete to deteriorate over the next 5 years and have to be replaced due to structural failure. Additional chips MAY occur later on but normally the majority will show up after the first winter.
5. We have offered to patch these small chips in the Spring of this year after the Winter has passed even though we are not obligated to. Mr. and Mrs. Meyer. They both initialed our [redacted]owner Warranty Program at walk-thru which specifically states that chipping/cracking of concrete is common and that this condition is NOT WARRANTABLE. (See
verbiage from our Warranty Program below.)
*Seller warrants materials and workmanship for one (1) year from the date of close of escrow and will repair any material defect arising during such period without charge to Purchaser following written notice by Purchaser to Seller delivered within forty-five (45) days after defect arises. This warranty does not cover cracking, peeling or pitting of cement work, damage to concrete or asphalt due to ground settling, frost heave, road salts or other conditions beyond Sellers control, cracking of drywall due to wood shrinkage or ground settling, or material or labor supplied by Purchaser.* (a copy of this initialed Warranty Program is on file in our office and is available to the[redacted] upon request.)
6. Mr. Meyer has refused our offer and continues to pursue his complaint through the [redacted] and now the [redacted] for the complete removal and replacement of all his concrete. Even if Mr. Meyer chose to replace the concrete on his own there would be no guarantee from the concrete supplier that the same result would not occur.
7. Hawthorne Creek [redacted]s is not obligated by contract, signed by Mr. & Mrs. Meyer, nor by industry standards to even further address this situation.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2015/02/18) */
Jim and Donna meyer responces to mr. [redacted]
1 In responce to 20 chips that's our point I tryed to explain to him,if he would look again today there is lots more
2 he compares my 7 month old concrete to 10 year old and 15 year old concrete.If he would come out of his office for himself he would see these drives are from roadsalt damage and have not been sealed
3 he missed my point again,we don't trust the concrete is sound,even if it is it will have to be replaced from all the chips
> 4 We did not refuse anything we don't know where that came from,we're just trying to get him to come up with a solution He answers to what he wants to answer to,His manager says they are not responsible for the concrete just the house,it is no surprise to us they don't want to be responsible,that's their character,thanks Jim and Donna
Final Business Response /* (4000, 12, 2015/02/20) */
The following comments are in response to Meyer's latest comments received by the[redacted] on Feb. 18, 2015:
1) On or about February 6, 2015, representatives from Hawthorne Creek [redacted]s ([redacted]) (Builder) and [redacted] (Concrete Supplier) examined all of Mr. & Mrs. Meyers flatwork both front and back and at that time noted approx. 20+/- popouts in all of their concrete. If more popouts have occurred, as Mr. Meyers stated, we are unaware of this change in condition. Regardless, as per our purchase contract and industry standards, this condition is not warrantable. (See attachments)
2) We are not comparing his 7 month old concrete to 10-15 year old concrete as he states. We are comparing it to his neighbors and new and existing homes throughout the area.
3) Every article that we have read relating to popouts in concrete, states that "Most Pop-Outs are aesthetic defects that do not impact the structural performance of the concrete members." (taken from "Concrete in Practice" by the NRMCA). "The good news is that Pop-Outs in concrete are a cosmetic defect that doesn't affect the structural integrity of the slab. You can patch the small holes by cleaning out the loose material and filling each one with a concrete patching material." (taken from "Ask [redacted]?, How to Repair Popouts in Concrete Patio Caused by Freezing") "Pop-Outs are a cosmetic distraction and typically do not affect the function or service of the flatwork." (taken from "Concrete Construction, Minimizing and Repairing Popouts"), "This is nothing to worry about since the integrity of the slab is not compromised." (taken from: "[redacted] on Concrete Surfaces"), "In as much as [redacted] (Illinois Dept. of Transportation) specifications permit to 5% deleterious material, Pop-Outs may occur. This condition is not grounds for rejection of the concrete." (taken from: "From the Findings of the[redacted] on durability, March 2012.").
4) On Item #6 of our first response, I stated that Mr. Meyers has refused our offer.... Mr. Meyers is correct, he did not refuse our offer at that time. I wrongfully assumed that because of his subsequent complaints to the[redacted] and[redacted], that he was in fact, refusing our offer of patch repair.
5) It's not that [redacted] (Mr. [redacted]) stated that "they are not responsible", it's that we stated, "Pop-Outs" are not warrantable. (see attached our "[redacted]'s [redacted]owner Warranty Program disclaimer for cosmetic defects in Concrete", acknowledged by the initials of Donna Meyer, Jim Meyer and Regina [redacted], President of [redacted]). We have never treated Mr. & Mrs. Meyer "SMALL" as he states, if anything, we have gone above board over and over and over and over again throughout his entire building process to accommodate his incessant, aggressive attitude toward [redacted], our employees and our subcontractors.
Because we again have spent an exhaustible effort addressing the Meyer's behavior, we are seriously considering rescinding our offer of patching his existing Pop-Outs in the Spring time. This is a non-warrantable issue and we are afraid that we are opening[redacted] over non-warrantable items that in good faith, we have attempted to address.
[redacted] Comment - see attached documents
Final Consumer Response /* (4200, 18, 2015/02/23) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
1 mr [redacted] missed my point again our concerns are it going to and it is getting much worse as the weather gets colder. 2 the houses that were built the same time as ours has no chips 3 again the chips are getting worse 4 he said he was not the one that was going to patch it in the first place 4 I complained to[redacted] because he did not want to respond to issue other than we're not responsible 5 we just wanted to be treated fair,he talks about my behavior,lets talk about his behavier and how we were at my house because they would show up once a week and how they didn't have the knowledge to know how to put my house on my lot would cost thousands,how I got upset when their sales lady would bring people in our house without permission and I would find door unlocked,how they would check house and not know my vents were getting covered,where wre they when neighbors threaten to sue me,how their subs would complain about them,
Initial Business Response / [redacted] (1000, 5, 2015/02/17) */ To the [redacted] in response to the complaint filed by Mr. Jim and Donna Meyer, complaint case # [redacted] regarding "Chips in Concrete" Hawthorne Creek ***s submits the following: 1. The "Chips" in the concrete Mr. Meyer is... referring to are surface indentations about 3/8"-1/2" in diameter and 1/16"- 1/8" in depth and are a result of "Chert Rock" found in the aggregate used in the concrete mix from the batch plant. See [redacted] Email below: [redacted] 2/11/15 To: [redacted] Please email to J. Meyers Mr. Meyer, I have been reviewing the documentation on concrete that was placed on June 18 & 19 in [redacted] Subdivision. My review has included all of the delivery tickets, batch weights from the plant and weather reports from the days in question. I have also discussed the project with my Sales Manager, [redacted] who physically looked at the concrete. It appears that we are all on the same page that the issue with the slab is Aggregate Popouts. All quarries in Southwest Missouri have a stone in their geology called Chert. Chert is a hard, opaque rock composed of silica (chalcedony) with an amorphous or microscopically fine-grained texture. It occurs as nodules (flint) or, less often, in massive beds. The is a sedimentary type of rock that is lightweight and more absorptive than limestone. The reason these popouts occur is that when moisture collects on the surface, some of this moisture finds its way into the concrete. When the temperature drops below freezing, the chert that has been infiltrated by water expands - causing the aggregate to fracture and pop out of the concrete. In addition to the geology and climate issues of this region, adding too much water to the concrete, over-working the concrete (bringing this aggregate to the surface) and not applying a proper curing compound all increase the likelihood of chert popouts. This is why you can see a small, typically white, aggregate in the bottom of each popout. This is a very common issue in this part of the country and while we take certain steps to reduce the amount of chert in our mixes, it cannot be eliminated. The industry standard is below 3% and our quarries strictly adheres to that standard. Fortunately this is purely an aesthetic issue and should not affect the long term durability of the concrete itself. As previously stated, this is a common situation in this area due to the nature of the aggregates that are available. Here is a link to a specific document called Concrete In Practice. It is published by the [redacted] Association and deals directly with the issue of Aggregate Popouts. http://www.nrmca.org/aboutconcrete/cips/40p.pdf If there are any other questions I can answer, don't hesitate to call. [redacted] Vice President of Sales & Marketing [redacted] P: (***) [redacted] F: (***) [redacted] 2. At this time there are approximately 20+/- of these small indentations in his driveway, walkway and patio, over a 1,000 square feet of concrete. 3. This condition is not an isolated incident to the Meyer's. It can be seen throughout the area as a common occurrence including in the public sidewalk and in many of drives and walks of Mr. Meyer's neighbors throughout his community. 4. Mr. Meyer's concrete is structurally sound and is not weakened by this condition. Mr. Meyer is mistaken when he states that this condition will cause the concrete to deteriorate over the next 5 years and have to be replaced due to structural failure. Additional chips MAY occur later on but normally the majority will show up after the first winter. 5. We have offered to patch these small chips in the Spring of this year after the Winter has passed even though we are not obligated to. Mr. and Mrs. Meyer. They both initialed our ***owner Warranty Program at walk-thru which specifically states that chipping/cracking of concrete is common and that this condition is NOT WARRANTABLE. (See verbiage from our Warranty Program below.) *Seller warrants materials and workmanship for one (1) year from the date of close of escrow and will repair any material defect arising during such period without charge to Purchaser following written notice by Purchaser to Seller delivered within forty-five (45) days after defect arises. This warranty does not cover cracking, peeling or pitting of cement work, damage to concrete or asphalt due to ground settling, frost heave, road salts or other conditions beyond Sellers control, cracking of drywall due to wood shrinkage or ground settling, or material or labor supplied by Purchaser. [redacted] (a copy of this initialed Warranty Program is on file in our office and is available to the [redacted] upon request.) 6. Mr. Meyer has refused our offer and continues to pursue his complaint through the [redacted] and now the [redacted] for the complete removal and replacement of all his concrete. Even if Mr. Meyer chose to replace the concrete on his own there would be no guarantee from the concrete supplier that the same result would not occur. 7. Hawthorne Creek ***s is not obligated by contract, signed by Mr. & Mrs. Meyer, nor by industry standards to even further address this situation. Initial Consumer Rebuttal / [redacted] (3000, 7, 2015/02/18) */ Jim and Donna meyer responces to mr. [redacted] 1 In responce to 20 chips that's our point I tryed to explain to him,if he would look again today there is lots more 2 he compares my 7 month old concrete to 10 year old and 15 year old concrete.If he would come out of his office for himself he would see these drives are from roadsalt damage and have not been sealed 3 he missed my point again,we don't trust the concrete is sound,even if it is it will have to be replaced from all the chips > 4 We did not refuse anything we don't know where that came from,we're just trying to get him to come up with a solution He answers to what he wants to answer to,His manager says they are not responsible for the concrete just the house,it is no surprise to us they don't want to be responsible,that's their character,thanks Jim and Donna Final Business Response / [redacted] (4000, 12, 2015/02/20) */ The following comments are in response to Meyer's latest comments received by the [redacted] on Feb. 18, 2015: 1) On or about February 6, 2015, representatives from Hawthorne Creek ***s (***) (Builder) and [redacted] (Concrete Supplier) examined all of Mr. & Mrs. Meyers flatwork both front and back and at that time noted approx. 20+/- popouts in all of their concrete. If more popouts have occurred, as Mr. Meyers stated, we are unaware of this change in condition. Regardless, as per our purchase contract and industry standards, this condition is not warrantable. (See attachments) 2) We are not comparing his 7 month old concrete to 10-15 year old concrete as he states. We are comparing it to his neighbors and new and existing homes throughout the area. 3) Every article that we have read relating to popouts in concrete, states that "Most Pop-Outs are aesthetic defects that do not impact the structural performance of the concrete members." (taken from "Concrete in Practice" by the NRMCA). "The good news is that Pop-Outs in concrete are a cosmetic defect that doesn't affect the structural integrity of the slab. You can patch the small holes by cleaning out the loose material and filling each one with a concrete patching material." (taken from "Ask ***?, How to Repair Popouts in Concrete Patio Caused by Freezing") "Pop-Outs are a cosmetic distraction and typically do not affect the function or service of the flatwork." (taken from "Concrete Construction, Minimizing and Repairing Popouts"), "This is nothing to worry about since the integrity of the slab is not compromised." (taken from: " [redacted] on Concrete Surfaces"), "In as much as [redacted] (Illinois Dept. of Transportation) specifications permit to 5% deleterious material, Pop-Outs may occur. This condition is not grounds for rejection of the concrete." (taken from: "From the Findings of the [redacted] on durability, March 2012."). 4) On Item #6 of our first response, I stated that Mr. Meyers has refused our offer.... Mr. Meyers is correct, he did not refuse our offer at that time. I wrongfully assumed that because of his subsequent complaints to the [redacted] and***, that he was in fact, refusing our offer of patch repair. 5) It's not that [redacted] (Mr. [redacted] ) stated that "they are not responsible", it's that we stated, "Pop-Outs" are not warrantable. (see attached our "***'s ***owner Warranty Program disclaimer for cosmetic defects in Concrete", acknowledged by the initials of Donna Meyer, Jim Meyer and Regina [redacted] , President of ***). We have never treated Mr. & Mrs. Meyer "SMALL" as he states, if anything, we have gone above board over and over and over and over again throughout his entire building process to accommodate his incessant, aggressive attitude toward ***, our employees and our subcontractors. Because we again have spent an exhaustible effort addressing the Meyer's behavior, we are seriously considering rescinding our offer of patching his existing Pop-Outs in the Spring time. This is a non-warrantable issue and we are afraid that we are opening [redacted] over non-warrantable items that in good faith, we have attempted to address. [redacted] Comment - see attached documents Final Consumer Response / [redacted] (4200, 18, 2015/02/23) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) 1 mr [redacted] missed my point again our concerns are it going to and it is getting much worse as the weather gets colder. 2 the houses that were built the same time as ours has no chips 3 again the chips are getting worse 4 he said he was not the one that was going to patch it in the first place 4 I complained to [redacted] because he did not want to respond to issue other than we're not responsible 5 we just wanted to be treated fair,he talks about my behavior,lets talk about his behavier and how we were at my house because they would show up once a week and how they didn't have the knowledge to know how to put my house on my lot would cost thousands,how I got upset when their sales lady would bring people in our house without permission and I would find door unlocked,how they would check house and not know my vents were getting covered,where wre they when neighbors threaten to sue me,how their subs would complain about them,
Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2015/02/17) */
To the [redacted] in response to the complaint filed by Mr. Jim and Donna Meyer, complaint case # [redacted] regarding "Chips in Concrete" Hawthorne Creek [redacted]s submits the following:
1. The "Chips" in the concrete Mr. Meyer is...
referring to are surface indentations about 3/8"-1/2" in diameter and 1/16"- 1/8" in depth and are a result of "Chert Rock" found in the aggregate used in the concrete mix from the batch plant. See [redacted] Email below:
[redacted]
[redacted]
2/11/15
To:[redacted]
Please email to J. Meyers
Mr. Meyer,
I have been reviewing the documentation on concrete that was placed on June 18 & 19 in [redacted] Subdivision. My review has included all of the delivery tickets, batch weights from the plant and weather reports from the days in question. I have also discussed the project with my Sales Manager, [redacted] who physically looked at the concrete.
It appears that we are all on the same page that the issue with the slab is Aggregate Popouts. All quarries in Southwest Missouri have a stone in their geology called Chert. Chert is a hard, opaque rock composed of silica (chalcedony) with an amorphous or microscopically fine-grained texture. It occurs as nodules (flint) or, less often, in massive beds. The is a sedimentary type of rock that is lightweight and more absorptive than limestone. The reason these popouts occur is that when moisture collects on the surface, some of this moisture finds its way into the concrete. When the temperature drops below freezing, the chert that has been infiltrated by water expands - causing the aggregate to fracture and pop out of the concrete. In addition to the geology and climate issues of this region, adding too much water to the concrete, over-working the concrete (bringing this aggregate to the surface) and not applying a proper curing compound all increase the likelihood of chert popouts. This is why you can see a small, typically white, aggregate in the bottom of each popout. This is a very common issue in this part of the country and while we take certain steps to reduce the amount of chert in our mixes, it cannot be eliminated. The industry standard is below 3% and our quarries strictly adheres to that standard.
Fortunately this is purely an aesthetic issue and should not affect the long term durability of the concrete itself. As previously stated, this is a common situation in this area due to the nature of the aggregates that are available.
Here is a link to a specific document called Concrete In Practice. It is published by the [redacted] Association and deals directly with the issue of Aggregate Popouts.
http://www.nrmca.org/aboutconcrete/cips/40p.pdf
If there are any other questions I can answer, don't hesitate to call.
[redacted]
Vice President of Sales & Marketing
[redacted]
P: ([redacted]
F: ([redacted]
2. At this time there are approximately 20+/- of these small indentations in his driveway, walkway and patio, over a 1,000 square feet of concrete.
3. This condition is not an isolated incident to the Meyer's. It can be seen throughout the area as a common occurrence including in the public sidewalk and in many of drives and walks of Mr. Meyer's neighbors throughout his community.
4. Mr. Meyer's concrete is structurally sound and is not weakened by this condition. Mr. Meyer is mistaken when he states that this condition will cause the concrete to deteriorate over the next 5 years and have to be replaced due to structural failure. Additional chips MAY occur later on but normally the majority will show up after the first winter.
5. We have offered to patch these small chips in the Spring of this year after the Winter has passed even though we are not obligated to. Mr. and Mrs. Meyer. They both initialed our [redacted]owner Warranty Program at walk-thru which specifically states that chipping/cracking of concrete is common and that this condition is NOT WARRANTABLE. (See
verbiage from our Warranty Program below.)
*Seller warrants materials and workmanship for one (1) year from the date of close of escrow and will repair any material defect arising during such period without charge to Purchaser following written notice by Purchaser to Seller delivered within forty-five (45) days after defect arises. This warranty does not cover cracking, peeling or pitting of cement work, damage to concrete or asphalt due to ground settling, frost heave, road salts or other conditions beyond Sellers control, cracking of drywall due to wood shrinkage or ground settling, or material or labor supplied by Purchaser.* (a copy of this initialed Warranty Program is on file in our office and is available to the[redacted] upon request.)
6. Mr. Meyer has refused our offer and continues to pursue his complaint through the [redacted] and now the [redacted] for the complete removal and replacement of all his concrete. Even if Mr. Meyer chose to replace the concrete on his own there would be no guarantee from the concrete supplier that the same result would not occur.
7. Hawthorne Creek [redacted]s is not obligated by contract, signed by Mr. & Mrs. Meyer, nor by industry standards to even further address this situation.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2015/02/18) */
Jim and Donna meyer responces to mr. [redacted]
1 In responce to 20 chips that's our point I tryed to explain to him,if he would look again today there is lots more
2 he compares my 7 month old concrete to 10 year old and 15 year old concrete.If he would come out of his office for himself he would see these drives are from roadsalt damage and have not been sealed
3 he missed my point again,we don't trust the concrete is sound,even if it is it will have to be replaced from all the chips
> 4 We did not refuse anything we don't know where that came from,we're just trying to get him to come up with a solution He answers to what he wants to answer to,His manager says they are not responsible for the concrete just the house,it is no surprise to us they don't want to be responsible,that's their character,thanks Jim and Donna
Final Business Response /* (4000, 12, 2015/02/20) */
The following comments are in response to Meyer's latest comments received by the[redacted] on Feb. 18, 2015:
1) On or about February 6, 2015, representatives from Hawthorne Creek [redacted]s ([redacted]) (Builder) and [redacted] (Concrete Supplier) examined all of Mr. & Mrs. Meyers flatwork both front and back and at that time noted approx. 20+/- popouts in all of their concrete. If more popouts have occurred, as Mr. Meyers stated, we are unaware of this change in condition. Regardless, as per our purchase contract and industry standards, this condition is not warrantable. (See attachments)
2) We are not comparing his 7 month old concrete to 10-15 year old concrete as he states. We are comparing it to his neighbors and new and existing homes throughout the area.
3) Every article that we have read relating to popouts in concrete, states that "Most Pop-Outs are aesthetic defects that do not impact the structural performance of the concrete members." (taken from "Concrete in Practice" by the NRMCA). "The good news is that Pop-Outs in concrete are a cosmetic defect that doesn't affect the structural integrity of the slab. You can patch the small holes by cleaning out the loose material and filling each one with a concrete patching material." (taken from "Ask [redacted]?, How to Repair Popouts in Concrete Patio Caused by Freezing") "Pop-Outs are a cosmetic distraction and typically do not affect the function or service of the flatwork." (taken from "Concrete Construction, Minimizing and Repairing Popouts"), "This is nothing to worry about since the integrity of the slab is not compromised." (taken from: "[redacted] on Concrete Surfaces"), "In as much as [redacted] (Illinois Dept. of Transportation) specifications permit to 5% deleterious material, Pop-Outs may occur. This condition is not grounds for rejection of the concrete." (taken from: "From the Findings of the[redacted] on durability, March 2012.").
4) On Item #6 of our first response, I stated that Mr. Meyers has refused our offer.... Mr. Meyers is correct, he did not refuse our offer at that time. I wrongfully assumed that because of his subsequent complaints to the[redacted] and[redacted], that he was in fact, refusing our offer of patch repair.
5) It's not that [redacted] (Mr. [redacted]) stated that "they are not responsible", it's that we stated, "Pop-Outs" are not warrantable. (see attached our "[redacted]'s [redacted]owner Warranty Program disclaimer for cosmetic defects in Concrete", acknowledged by the initials of Donna Meyer, Jim Meyer and Regina [redacted], President of [redacted]). We have never treated Mr. & Mrs. Meyer "SMALL" as he states, if anything, we have gone above board over and over and over and over again throughout his entire building process to accommodate his incessant, aggressive attitude toward [redacted], our employees and our subcontractors.
Because we again have spent an exhaustible effort addressing the Meyer's behavior, we are seriously considering rescinding our offer of patching his existing Pop-Outs in the Spring time. This is a non-warrantable issue and we are afraid that we are opening[redacted] over non-warrantable items that in good faith, we have attempted to address.
[redacted] Comment - see attached documents
Final Consumer Response /* (4200, 18, 2015/02/23) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
1 mr [redacted] missed my point again our concerns are it going to and it is getting much worse as the weather gets colder. 2 the houses that were built the same time as ours has no chips 3 again the chips are getting worse 4 he said he was not the one that was going to patch it in the first place 4 I complained to[redacted] because he did not want to respond to issue other than we're not responsible 5 we just wanted to be treated fair,he talks about my behavior,lets talk about his behavier and how we were at my house because they would show up once a week and how they didn't have the knowledge to know how to put my house on my lot would cost thousands,how I got upset when their sales lady would bring people in our house without permission and I would find door unlocked,how they would check house and not know my vents were getting covered,where wre they when neighbors threaten to sue me,how their subs would complain about them,