Ray's Truck Service

Complaint: [redacted]
I am rejecting this response because:  To start off I can understand Ray's Trucking Service's  position to a certain extent.   But after having owned vehicles for over 40 years I have set up certain rules for myself when it comes to having service performed on my vehicles.  Number one rule is to never go back to a service shop after bad service has been performed.  If a mechanic can't get it right the first time chances are the next time won't be much better.  Number two rule is always go to the most qualified shop for the particular repair needed.  To put it bluntly Ray's Truck Service isn't the most qualified differential repair shop in Spokane, Washington.  The two best service shops for differential repair in Spokane, Washington are shops owned by [redacted] and [redacted].  Both of these guys are experts at differential repair.  The reason being they have decades of experience.  I would have had my vehicle's differential work performed at either one of these shops if Ray's Truck Service hadn't went ahead and performed the work on the differential without first calling me on my cell phone, after I had told Rick at Ray's Truck Service to call me with a diagnosis of the suspected worn u-joint problem.  I have never taken a vehicle to a service shop and had a company just go ahead and repair a vehicle without first giving me an estimate.  That is bad business.  A total lack of respect towards their customers.  For these reasons I will never go back to Ray's Truck Service in the future.  Thank you.
Sincerely,
[redacted]

Review: RV REPAIR CONCERNS

1 - AMMOUNT OF TIME TAKEN TO DO THE REPAIR DAYS – (relative to quoted time of completion – ready before 11-19-2014; not completed until 12-3-2014). I needed to arrange another ride which cost me a whole day of my time and that of a friend and gas. As I was in Spokane on the 19th already I had to spend the night in a hotel as it was not finished as spoken. I would estimate this expense at $300 - $40 for gas, 8 hrs. of time @ $20 hr. and the hotel @$100.

2 - % CHARGE ABOVE COST FOR PARTS (why should I pay more than it would have cost me myself if I would have bought the parts when I gave you the connection for parts). Total parts comes to $479 including the in question wheel bearings $198 cost. The amount charged was $827.63. [redacted] told me upcharge on parts was 25%. 125% of $479 is $598 not $828.

3 - NUMBER OF SHIPMENTS FOR PARTS (and actual cost vs. what it should have cost). [redacted] quoted me a total of $15 for shipping all the parts if they would have been shipped at once instead of many shipments totaling $112. [redacted], the owner at Rays Service tells me that they do not order parts all at once. They order parts for the engine, then the front end and then the rear of the vehicle. Even though they assessed these areas and then ordered the parts for them they did not complete the work until all the parts were in hand. There was even one instance when they ordered parts overnight but still did not use those parts until a week later. They still qualify this as needing the $112 worth of shipping.

I informed [redacted] at the front desk when I brought the vehicle in that cost was a concern for me in this project. I had one main concern and the others were mostly simple diagnostics other than the request to grease the rear wheel bearings. I thought the main concern would be the bulk of the cost for this project and the others minimal which they should have been. The main concern (white smoke on startup and black smoke under load) was addressed with a simple fix of cleaning the injectors and replacing them. They checked the timing to be sure it was correct and then noticed the injectors were loose. They removed them, had them cleaned and tested by another business ($100) and replaced them in the engine. The timing check, diagnostics and R&R of the parts was $500.

4 - TAX ON PARTS – If I would have been given the option to order my own parts (which [redacted] said I could have done but was not offered to option to) they could have been ordered by me without tax.

5 - EXTRA COST FOR PARTS THAT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NEEDED (rear wheel bearings - there was no reason they needed to be removed by destruction other than lack of skillset). I questioned the shop at [redacted] about whether it is common for wheel bearings needing to be destroyed in the greasing bearing process. The answer was - once in a great while when the bearing has seized up due to having been run dry and then they need to be destroyed in removal. The response to how about both needing destruction – “something is askew in this picture”. [redacted] the mechanic told me the bearings still had plenty of grease in them, so they were not seized up bearings. I contest the need for these parts and ask them to be removed from the parts list.

6 - HOW CAN LABOR BE SO HIGH PART 1 (original cost before brakes and rear axle work was $1004 – I assume this included tax as [redacted] told me this is where we stood at this point).

When I brought the vehicle in for service I had one main concern and a few other what were seemingly mostly simple diagnostics other than a request to grease the rear wheel bearings. I thought the main concern would be the bulk of the cost for this project and the others minimal which they should have been. The main concern (white smoke on startup and black smoke under load) was addressed with a simple fix of cleaning the injectors and replacing them. They checked the timing to be sure it was correct and then noticed the injectors were loose. They removed them, had them cleaned and tested by another business ($100) and replaced them in the engine. The timing check, diagnostics and R&R of the parts was $500, a total of $600.

a) The initial work that was done for this $1004 amount included the above mentioned injector cleaning and testing and R&R and diagnostics ($600) (evaluating the cause of white/grey smoke on startup), this is all inclusive including test driving the rig (this is the one item that has a separate cost sheet for it). This left $404 for the following work

b) Rehang a heat shield for the clutch hydraulic line (max ½ hour a very simple task of tie wiring a thin piece of metal in place with two pieces of tie wire),

c) Assess the clicking noise which was determined as coming from the clutch (15 minutes at most as it is a very obvious sound),

d) Reinstalling the snap clip on the clutch pedal (this they said required some kind of extra work as the receiving end of the clip was worn - they did this extra work without my approval as I only asked them to replace the clip) – 20 minutes.

e) R&R air cleaner – 15 minutes

f) Determine the cause of the exhaust entering the cabin from the firewall side of the motor. This too was a simple evaluation as it was an obvious loose part of the exhaust caused by a missing bushing and a basic muffler clamp – (they charged me over $8 for this clamp. It is a $2-3 part). This job may have taken 1 – 1.25 hour.

Subtracting the $600 for the resolution of the white smoke issue leaves $404 for a simple clip reinstall and two relatively simple evaluations? I would say this is at most is 2.5 hours (being generous), I am charged for 4.75 hrs.

7 - HOW CAN LABOR BE SO HIGH PART 2 (relative to the second run of labor – install front brake pads and grease rear wheel bearings (wheel cylinders were added to this without my consent – they had already ordered the parts when I called to see how the project was coming along) – This part of the project is where the real price questions come in. There is basically a charge for $1944 for the parts and labor for these two procedures. Parts have been shown to be charged out at the inflated cost of $828 ($900 w/tax) leaving $1044 for labor. This is 11.8 hours at $85 hr. which is what I was told the charge is. Please read the below for what a shop back east feels is a reasonable amount of time for each of these jobs. Please keep in mind both of these operations are very routine mechanical type of work. The time allotments presented are pretty much what I thought I would be getting into. I figured we would have about $100 in brake shoes and maybe $400-500 in labor. You can imagine when I get a bill for $1944 for this work I am dumbstruck and hence my requesting clear documentation of the work done. At this juncture I need to say the bill is significantly less than adequate in itemizing anything other than parts and the engine work (which I specifically asked for upfront). I have this available for review if need be.

I contacted [redacted] asking them what it would cost in time to do the front brake pads. The response – in the worst case scenario that every part needed to be removed and worked on it would take no more than 2 hours.

With the same question for the rear bearings and wheel cylinders – “a half a day, 4 hours would be more than adequate”.

We also have a half an hour for the test drive once these parts have been installed, making a total of 6.5 hours or $552. Remember the asked for labor price is $1044 a difference of $491.

When I asked [redacted] for detailed labor tracking he could not produce any record showing time spent on any part of the vehicle other than a very rudimentary sheet with my name on it and some figures scratched on the side of the paper (I have a copy of these records). No notes as to what had been done and when. When asked for a more clear communication he said all the mechanic does is write down his time at the end of the day as best as he can remember and on what project(s) he worked on. When asked how it could take so much time for such simple mechanic tasks his response was “It just took that long” and “these vehicles are hard to get parts for (there was no issue with this) and challenging to work on”. When pressed for more clarity as to time spent on these two projects “I cannot remember and the mechanic will not be able to either”. At some point along the way [redacted]’s wife chimed in “I could do the brake work in two hours”! In all this communication I was calm and had just asked for clarification, they both were excited and she was vehement even to the point of calling the police on me if I did not just pay up or leave accusing me of trying to cheat them. There was never a workable air like one would expect if they wanted a satisfied customer.

Please be aware that I was told that things got out of hand and they ran into difficulties. I know that if it were me and I ran into a challenging situation that took such a significant more amount of time that normal I would surely remember for the one week in between completion and the time the project was collected pretty close idea of the extra time spent.

When looking at how exaggerated the labor costs are on the two above points in question (part 1 and Part 2) I have to assume they are so on the diagnoses/resolution of the white/black smoke issue as well. Based on how the figures play out above it seems 3.5 hours labor instead of 5.9 is more appropriate.

Note 1 - in all of this a there was never a single phone call made to me during this entire project. When I called to ask about progress (which was painfully slow) I would hear things like “we ordered the wheel cylinders for the rear as one was leaking”. I was not asked if I wanted this done or if I wanted it done on one or both. “We forgot to order that part so we had it shipped overnight”. When asked – what does that cost the reply was “not that much” Me – I am sure that is a lot more money” the reply - “oh it’s not that much!” In the end parts were ordered and shipped many times and then did all the works more than a week after they came. The only time I recall being asked something was when they discovered the front brake pads being thin I was asked if I wanted to address this. There was never an offer of a quote on any of the standard type of work even though from the beginning I expressed my concern about costs. There was never a call telling me things were challenging and costs might be out of a normal range. These obviously were not considered important communications. I guess they feel they can spend my money without ever asking me if it is acceptable to me.

Note 2 - The icing on the cake – “We are giving you over a $500 discount on the labor as there was stuff we just don’t feel we can charge for”? There was a serious head shaking going on for me on this on so many levels.

Note 3 – I have the invoice. It is for $1948.25. I paid $1600 in cash and the remainder of $1100 on my debit card. [redacted] did end up giving me a $250 credit for my extra expenses related to their untimely completion of the project. I tried to give them a check but they refused saying they don’t except them as they have received too many bounced checks (I wonder why?).

Note 4 – I spoke more than once of my concern as charges mounted to [redacted]. The façade of Mr. Nice Guy that he put on from the start and throughout the project disappeared as soon as I contested the charges in person. I knew as soon as I saw [redacted] and learned he was the owner that he would be a man not easy to reckon with.

Note 5 – The bill is unprofessional. There are no subtotals for each page, none of the labor is itemized with relation to time spent.Desired Settlement: I would like to see the unavailable itemized billing that shows dates of work performed and work done on those dates.I would also like to have it explained to me how the two simple basic mechanical procedures can go so awry that it would cost three times the normal cost for such projects and why I was never contacted to let me know that things were getting out of hand if that is in fact the case. I would also like to see the parts prices adjusted either to reflect the cost I would have paid for the parts as I was never offered this option and it was in fact an option. if this is not acceptable in the absolute least I would like to have the office managers word honored and the prices be marked up only 25% as he said that is what they were doing. I want to be refunded money for the parts over charge and the shipping overcharges. I want to refunded for the unreasonable costs of labor presented for this in essence rather simple simple mechanical work that was done.

Business

Response:

[redacted] fails to mention that he approved all repairs over the phone in multiple phone calls during the time his vehicle was here, and that when he initially came in to pick up his vehicle, he had NO COMPLAINTS whatsoever -- not a single one -- and was more than happy to pay his bill with $1600 cash and the rest on an out-of-town personal check. When he was told we do not accept personal checks, but that he could pay the balance on a credit card or in cash, he acted very surprised and repeatedly questioned our policy and stated he didn't have any more cash, nor did he have a credit card. We apologized for the inconvenience, but said we could not make an exception. He made no further complaint, and went outside and was on his phone for a long time. He came in later and went on and on at that point, claiming we had charged him too much, that we had billed him unfairly and that he had to wait an unreasonably long time to get his vehicle and even had to stay in a hotel. No matter how much we tried to go over all the repairs he had pre-approved to us, he became more and more beligerant and accusatory and escalated in such an intimidating way that he was finally told he either needed to pay his bill -- which we would discount an additional $200 for his hotel stay claim (even though we had already explained to him that we discounted the invoice prior to his arrival in the amount of $729 to offset the extra diagnostic labor time) -- or he needed leave the premises and that if he did neither, we would call the police. He actually smiled and laughed at us when he was told that, and continued to escalate and threaten to contact the Revdex.com. We finally did call the police. He all of a sudden had a credit card now (even though he initially claimed he did not have one) and decided in the interim to agree to pay his bill, minus the $200 discount which he said was acceptable. BTW, We have a photo of [redacted] smiling at our counter when he was told that we had called the police (we took the photo as evidence in the event things worsened). [redacted] asked us if we wanted him to pose for further photos. His motorhome was oddly filled with massive religious symbolism, and his affect and lack of caring was so bizarre we felt concerned for our safety. He had already made an effort to write us a potentially bad check and it was apparent he was trying to intimidate us so he could pay only what he wanted to. The police arrived and spoke with him outside. They interviewed us and stated that he sounded very "constitutionalist". They asked us if he could leave and because he had paid, we said yes. No charges were filed. However, we will not be making any more concessions for [redacted] and will not be responding to any further claims by him.

Consumer

Response:

Revdex.com,

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted] and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint. I think if you review what the business has said that there is no resolution offered. The points I made in my complaint have been addressed. I am going to address this below letter directly to the owners as it feels strange to me to talk to someone else as a go between. Please bare with me.[redacted] and your wife (I wish I knew your name so I could address you directly and personally),Please, if you would read this letter through to the end and with an open mind/heart.When I first heard what the bill was I was blown away and could not even begin to understand how it went from $1004 to the $2950 by just adding brake pads and rear wheel bearing greasing/replacement (I know there wheel cylinders added in here as well). As there had been challenges already with lack of clear communication and respect between [redacted] and I with the vehicles promised time not being met (this involved a lot of don't worry it will be ready in time (and not being ready until two weeks later) and my concern about over night charges for shipping and what I felt was flippant a remark about how its "not that much money". This lead me to believe that this would not be an easy situation to deal with as there were already these non dealt with issues. As I reflected on things I saw there were other issues at hand for me and I did not know how to begin to confront you (or as I thought at the time [redacted]) with my concerns. I do not like conflict, especially with someone I do not know and especially on the phone. Because of this I contacted Revdex.com prior to going to Spokane and asked what I might do in this situation. I was told to try and talk with you and if there was no solution to contact them. I told them my concern that if I paid out the money I would most likely never see it again as it is a lot harder to get money back once it is in someone elses hands than it is to wait and have a resolution and then settle up afterwards. To this end I was looking at how I might handle this and possibly have a little leverage in the situation. It was suggested to me that I pay what seemed a reasonable amount for the work and write a check that I could put a stop payment on until the situation was resolved. I presented this idea to a Revdex.com representative and was told it sounded like a reasonable approach considering the situation. As a person that strives to be honest in all things, it was difficult for me to go into your business and do this but I felt communication would not go well and I didn't want to take the chance I would be paying an inflated amount for services and parts and never see any recompense. To this end I put a lot of thought and research into what would be reasonable for

the work done so as to be at least on some close/fair ground cost wise and then made my attempt to follow this guidance I had received.After being told a check was a not acceptable I was outside for a long time discussing what I should do with my friend. I had few choices having driven so far and not wanting to leave without my vehicle. I felt under the gun and didn't know what to do. Did you know we drove 185 miles to get there and it was very difficult to find someone coming to Spokane (my friend offered to do so with no need to go there as folks form our area don;t seem to travel much to Spokane)? At any rate it took a lot of courage to come in and try to work something out with you as I was was very intimidated in the situation. I do not feel I was being belligerent with you, just trying to stand my ground and get some resolution. I apologize if I made you feel this way. I would to explain to you here what was going on for me while I was in your office. The mechanic showed me what he had done on the rig in the first bit of work I was charged $1004 for. I recognized it as a few very simple repairs other than the engine work, which I didn't fully understand but knew it had been completed in a reasonable amount of time based on what [redacted] had told me that all the work other than the brakes and rear bearings had been completed for in the initial $1004. I was challenged with the amount of time spent on the brake pads and rear wheel bearings and the mark up on the parts as it all seemed exorbitant, knowing somehow (but not knowing how) it went from $1004 to almost $3000. I asked [redacted] if he would talk with me and believe I spoke calmly and clearly expressing my concerns about the issues, asking for clear representation of how much time was spent on these last two pieces of work that were done and about the mark up on the parts. He was not able to produce anything tangible for me nor did I receive what I thought was a workable response. We were at a standstill in the communication. Please remember I was over a barrel as I had come 3.5 hours to pick up the vehicle and wanted some resolution/clarity so I could go home with the vehicle and a good feeling. At this point in our conversation, [redacted]'s wife, I wish I knew your name so I could address you personally, joined the conversation. I can understand how you got upset thinking I was trying to cheat you. I hope that you can understand my tenuous position as I have spoken of above. I can only imagine that if you were in a situation like this you would want clarity as well. I see by your response that you are still upset, I am sorry for this and I apologize to you for my part in leading you to believe I was trying to cheat you. I was only trying to protect myself until there was reasonable resolution and went about it in the wrong manner. I see now that I took bad advise and should have just come in, expressed my concerns and asked for resolution. If it was not reached I would have moved to the next step of contacting Revdex.com. If I lived in the area I believe it all would have played out very differently as it would have been easy for me to come and go at any point. I would still like to have this reasonable communication with you if at all possibly. If this letter helps you have a bit more of an open heart I ask you to please reread my first part of this complaint process to have a better understanding of my concerns. I may be off base or unreasonable on some things but the more than 25% mark up on parts and the lack of clarity/reasonableness relative to typical pricing on the on the brake and rear bearing charges remain the big issues.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter,Sincerely,

Review: Company was to check 8 existing wires on truck to verify they were hooked to the correct location for which they charged me $763.00. Upon picking the truck up from them I was told the checks were made and any problems corrected, which was contrary to my actual findings. The company technician did not offer to test drive the vehicle to demonstrate everything was working. Company Ofc manager came to parking lot where the vehicle was parked and the technician was explaining his repairs and insisted the technician return to work. The repair was not done as paid for because after driving the vehicle it failed to work, I called the company to talk to the technician but was told he was unavailable because he was working on other vehicles. I checked my truck over myself and found a wire left unconnected. On the compaany receipt there was no labor rate listed nor hours the technician worked on my vehicle. The company does not list rates for customers to make a decision on repairs nor do they give the customer an estimate before hand. What I paid for was to have the vehicle returned to me in working order as agreed upon, this in itself is a breach of contract as they were paid and the truck was returned to me not working.Desired Settlement: I request a whole/partial refund as the repair was not accomplished as agreed upon.

Business

Response:

To give history to this case: [redacted] brought his vehicle in to repair the [redacted]. Prior to beginning repairs, it was explicitly explained to the customer that we cannot bid for electrical work, but that it is billed by time and material only. The customer approved us to repair the issue. Our 30-year-veteran electrical technician determined the [redacted] had been installed incorrectly originally by a Washington Coast vendor. Our tech explained what that vender had done incorrectly. Our tech also spoke with [redacted] mfr. directly to correctly diagnose the issue and repaired it as per the manufacturer. As it states in the invoice description, the vehicle was test driven to ensure it operated properly. It was then successfully driven to the parking lot [redacted] cites in his statement. It was also successfully driven from our facility by the customer as [redacted] also cites in his statement .The wire [redacted] is potentially referring to is the 4x4 wire described in his invoice that is supposed to be disconnected in order for [redacted] to operate properly. [redacted] specifically stated while at our facility that he was going to go after the original installer who installed the [redacted] incorrectly to get his money back. It would seem he was not successful in doing so by his apparent attempt to get a full refund from our shop.

Just as a doctor cannot diagnose a patient over the phone, without physically seeing what was -- or is -- wrong with the vehicle, we cannot diagnose or even confirm that the part [redacted] is referring to was, or is, not working properly, or that the wire he clams to have reconnected is related to the issue and therefore cannot make any determination whether or not it was due to anything our technician did or did not do. If [redacted] is still having issues with the vehicle we encourage him to make an appointment with us to make that determination. If it is found that it is not working properly due to an error on our part, as is our policy, we will repair it at no cost to him.

[redacted], Co-owner

Ray's Truck Service & RV