Riehl's Outdoor Furnaces

HELLO [redacted]This is **. from Riehl's outdoor furnaces . This letter is regarding complaint ID# [redacted].YOU REQUESTED THAT WE PROVIDE A REASON WHY WE ARE NOT OFFERING A FULL REFUND ON THE HEATING SYSTEM. AS I HAVE MENTIONED IN MY PREVIOUS LETTER THE HEAT EXCHANGERS AND OTHER COMPONENTS ARE DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.IN HIS COMPLAINT [redacted] MENTIONS THE COST OF THE HEAT EXCHANGERS TO BE APPROXIMATELY $1260.00 IF YOU LOOK AT THE ENCLOSED INVOICE AND QUOTE SHEET YOU WILL SEE THAT THE 86,000 BTU UNIT HEATER COSTS $643.94 THE DOMESTIC HOT WATER KIT COSTS $335.23 AND THE BOILER HEAT EXCHANGER COSTS $425.00 WHICH COMES TO A TOTAL OF $1404.17 THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE LABOR OR DELIVERY WHICH WE HAVE APPROXIMATLY 100 MILES TO [redacted]'S HOUSE. AND THE 8.5% LABOR IS NOT AN ACCURATE ESTIMATE TO USE FOR THE PARTS HOOKUP IF YOU FIGURE THAT $8975.00 OF THE PURCHASE IS THE FURNACE WHICH WAS DELIVERED ON A TRAILER THEN LIFTED FROM THE TRAILER TO THE CONCRETE PAD THAT WAS THERE WHEN I FIRST GOT THERE SO THE LABOR FOR THE FURNACE WAS APPROXIMATELY 3 HRS WHICH IS FAR LESS THEN 91.5% OF THE LABOR COST. OUR TOTAL HOURS OF LABOR WAS 92 HRS. THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE RETURNING TO MAKE FINAL ADJUSTMENTS TO THE SYSTEM[redacted] ALSO MENTIONS THAT GETTING A REFUND FOR THE FURNACE AND NOT THE COMPLETE SYSTEM WOULD BE LIKE BUYING A LEMON CAR AND ONLY GETTING REFUNDED FOR THE MOTOR. I WOULD DISAGREE WITH THAT BEING THAT THE FURNACE AND THE PARTS ARE MANUFACTURED BY DIFFERENT COMPANIES SO I WOULD SEE IT BEING MORE LIKE BUYING A TRUCK AND A TRAILER WITH ALL THE TIE DOWN STRAPS AND SAFTY EQUIPMENT IF THE TRUCK DOESN'T HAVE THE POWER TO PULL THE TRAILER THE MANUFACTERS WON'T TAKE BACK THE TRAILER AND THE SAFTY EQUIPMENT THIS IS A SIMULAR SITUATION BUT THAT IT IS A HEAT SYSTEM INSTEAD OF A TRUCK AND TRAILER.WE ARE ALSO IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO REACH AN AGREEMENT TO REPLACE THE GX10 WITH THE LARGER GX 20 WHICH HAS TWICE THE HEATING CAPACITY. [redacted] AT [redacted] [redacted] HAS AGREED TO SWAP THE FURNACES AT NO ADDITIONAL COST TO [redacted] AND I HAVE PROPOSED TO DO THE LABOR ASSOCIATED WITH THE SWAP AT NO ADDITIONAL COST. AT THIS TIME I AM WAITING TO GET THE SPECS FOR THE GX20 FROM [redacted] AT [redacted] AS SOON AS I RECEIVE THEM I WILL FORWARD THEM TO [redacted].THANK-YOU [redacted] RIEHL**RIEHL'S OUTDOOR FURNACES

Hello [redacted]This is ** from Riehl's outdoor furnaces. I am writing in regards to the letter I received about the [redacted] complaint ([redacted])We have been trying to work with [redacted] to come up with a solution for his heating system which was installed on 10/15/2013 thru 10/17/2013 for a...

total amount of $14,870.02. We have not been able to agree on a settlement plan because we have proposed a few different options#1 was to install a new delivery system in the indoor heating system which [redacted] was not interested in because of the cost involved. Which I can very well understand beings the cost could have been as high as $10'000#2 was to eliminate the 4" main distribution lines in the basement and change to a manifold system and run Zi" pex pipe to each radiator which would have eliminated approximately 150 gallons of water from the existing system which would lower the btu's needed by about 84'000 btu's. I was told this is not an option because [redacted] said his house is an historic house and may not be modified on the inside#3 was to change his existing system to an open loop system and insulate the heat delivery pipes in the basement and crawl space and install a circulating pump with a lower gallons per minute rating resulting in a longer burn time which is the issue we are dealing with. This option we were willing to do at no extra cost to [redacted] if he does not see at least a 30% or greater increase in burn time.#4 was and still is returning the gxlO furnace for a full refund as long as the furnace is in the same condition as it was when I delivered it other than normal usage. The reason we are not offering a full refund on the complete system is that the heat exchangers are working fine as long as we have 170 degree water coming in from the outdoor unit which [redacted] agreed with and told me the main problem is not getting a long enough burn time per fill.. Also [redacted] said he wants to put in another outdoor boiler and would like to keep the heat exchangers.The total refund that option #4 includes are as follows (GX10 =8975.00 2 back of furnace kits at $274.83 each =$549.66 GX10 prep package =$100.33 and a chimney extension =$168.17 for a total refund of $9793.16)[redacted] has also mentioned that the GX10 is not big enough to heat his house which is not true the GX10 has a btu of 144,000 btu's. Which if you do the calculations for his house approximately 2500 sq ft with 9 ft ceiling height =22,500 cubic ft x an insulation value of 5 =112,500 btu's needed to heat his house also his garage is 30x40 =120 sq ft with 8 ft ceiling height =960 cubic ft x insulation value of 10 =9,600 btu's needed for a total of 122,100 btu's needed to heat both buildings.But what I was unaware of until after the installation was complete is that his existing indoor system holds approximately 500 gallons of water which when you do the water to water heat exchange it makes sense why we have a short burn time. We are trying to heat 500 gallons of water using 114 gallons that the GX10 holds so the outdoor unit has to cycle 5 times just to heat the 500 gallons of water.

[To assist us in bringing this matter to a close, you must give us a reason why you are rejecting the response. If no reason is received your complaint will be closed Administratively Resolved]
 Complaint: [redacted]
I am rejecting this response because:
In response
to Riehl's Outdoor Furnaces’ response to our complaint, we reject their offer
of settlement in the amount of 66% of the total amount paid to them.  There have been many reasons provided to us
why the furnace is not heating our house properly, but the true reason is that
the unit which was sold to us by Riehl’s Outdoor Furnaces and [redacted] was
and is too small for our house’s heating load. 
The installer, a [redacted] Dealer, [redacted] Riehl of Riehl’s Outdoor
Furnaces (a/k/a **.) agreed that the unit is inadequate in his initial response
to this complaint. 
When we
purchased the unit and its components, it was with the understanding that it would
integrate without modification to our existing heat delivery system. [redacted]
[redacted] representatives and **. questioned us regarding square footage of the
house; about existing oil-fired system components, performance and fuel usage;
and about distance from the proposed [redacted] location to the house, all in order
to determine the unit needed.  Further,
contrary to **.’s suggestion that he was “unaware [of] until after the
installation was complete [is] that his existing indoor system holds
approximately 500 gallons of water” as for the past 100 years, the heat delivery
system was in place when Riehl’s Outdoor Furnaces arrived for installation.   Only after the [redacted] unit failed to perform
satisfactorily were the suggestions to modify, replace, or disturb our delivery
system proposed by **. and [redacted] owners. All modifications involved additional
costs, some significant, and none coming with any sort of guarantee of
success.  These modifications were supposed
to make the inadequate newly installed system -- which we had now paid for in
full -- able to heat our house.   These proposals were well beyond the initial
scope of work, and were simply an attempt to correct the manufacturer’s and
installer’s negligence.   We were being asked to incur significant extra
expense, time/aggravation, and perhaps most importantly, invasive potentially
destructive permanent changes to a historic 100 year old radiator and piping
system.  Then, as now, we remain
unwilling to tamper with a functioning system, particularly in an effort to
cure a problem created by the manufacturer’s and installer’s negligent conduct.
In his
response to this complaint, **. explains that approximately 122,100 BTUs are needed
to heat our house.  The [redacted] GX10 model’s
maximum output, according to EPA Hydronic Heater Program testing and
information contained in an OMNI test report dated February 2012, is 144,870
BTU/hour.  However, because the nature of
the wood-fired furnace does not provide an even, constant BTU output, the
actual heat output over an 8 hour period is ONLY 76,887 BTU/hour (see attached
letter from the United States Environmental Protection Agency dated February
28, 2012) – again according to **.’s calculation, this is far less than what is
necessary to heat our house.  This is
the problem.  **. states many
different methods which were proposed to us as “solutions” to the problem.  How can any of these solutions even be
considered when his calculations suggest that the [redacted] unit must operate at 158%
of its tested capacity.   The unit only boasts an 85% efficiency rating,
so this unit was sold to us with the company knowing that the furnace would not
be able to heat our house – regardless of our interior delivery system.
The refund proposed
by Riehl’s Outdoor Furnaces of $9793.16 seems to be an unfairly weighted amount
of the total project cost of $14,870.02. 
As stated in **.’s response, we have agreed to retain the heat exchangers
which were installed, but these only amount to 8.5% of the total project
cost.  The material cost of the exchangers
to us was approximately $1260.00 and even if you add in 8.5% of the total labor
of the project, we would concede that the total allocation for the exchangers could
be $1450.00.  With those figures taken
into consideration, we would agree to accept a refund of $13,400.00 and agree
that Riehl’s Outdoor Furnaces would be permitted to retrieve the GX10 furnace
with normal usage, 2 back of furnace kits, GX10 Prep package, chimney extension
and the underground piping as installed. 
If Riehl’s intends to remove the underground piping, it would be understood
that the site be restored to the existing condition with appropriate
replacement of turf and/or gravel.  If
more agreeable to Riehl’s we would consent to a cash payment and retaining the
heat exchangers as installed in basement and garage, but would agree that removal
of any or all of the remaining installed items is optional to Riehl’s Outdoor
Furnaces.
In summary
Riehl’s Outdoor Furnaces, an agent representative of [redacted] installed a
heating system, an outdoor wood furnace, which does not heat our house and
garage as originally contracted and we are requesting a settlement of
$13,400.00 for the reasons stated above.
Regards,
[redacted]

[To assist us in bringing this matter to a close, you must give us a reason why you are rejecting the response. If no reason is received your complaint will be closed Administratively Resolved] Complaint: [redacted]
I am rejecting this response because
The [redacted] Team continues to provide a mixture of information which
conflicts.  A response dated 4/25/2014
to the Revdex.com of Michigan case id [redacted] by [redacted] states that we have been offered a full
refund.  I would gladly accept
the refund of the entire purchase price of $14,701.85.  After receiving this information through the
Revdex.com of Michigan, I contacted [redacted] of Riehl’s Outdoor Furnaces, and he is
unaware of such a refund being offered. 
[redacted], aka **.   sent me an email on
4/7/2014 that states, “GOOD
EVENING [redacted]  THIS IS ** FROM RIEHL'S
OUTDOOR FURNACES I HAD A LENGTHY DISCUSSION WITH [redacted] FROM [redacted] TODAY
AND HE HAS DECIDED TO PROPOSE A NEW OFFER TO YOU. IF YOU WOULD ACCEPT THIS
OFFER HE WOULD GIVE YOU AN EVEN TRADE ON YOUR GX10 FOR A NEW GX20 AS SOON AS IT
CLEARS EPA TESTING AND I WOULD BE WILLING TO DO THE LABOR NEEDED TO CHANGE THE
FURNACE FREE OF CHARGE IF THIS IS SOMETHING YOU ARE INTERESTED IN PLEASE LET ME
KNOW SO THAT WE CAN GET THIS ISSUE RESOLVED. THANK-YOU AND HAVE A GREAT
DAY “ 
I would also
like to get this issue resolved quickly. 
After receiving his message, I asked [redacted] for information about the GX20
that has been in development stages for at least 5 years, and he has been
unable to do so. 
The new
offer from [redacted] from [redacted] which [redacted] proposed is not an acceptable
solution to the problem.  It has been
since late October, early November 2013 that it was evident that the heating
system installed was not sufficient to heat our house.  This proposal by [redacted] is further evidence
that he agrees that they negligently installed a unit that was too small; arguably
because it was the only one they sell that would be able to be installed in
Maryland.
As
requested several times in the past in both writing and verbally to several
members of the [redacted] Team, we would be happy to settle this entire matter immediately
with a refund of $13.400., in lieu of any sort of trade or allowance.  Thank you.
Regards,
[redacted]

Review: Riehl's Outdoor Furnaces as an agent of [redacted] sized, specified, delivered and installed a GX10 Outdoor wood furnace and all parts and equipment at our property on Oct 15 16 16 2013. This heating unit has never properly heated our home, nor does it operate to our satisfaction, nor to the specifications as outlined in the sales literature and website advertisement of the [redacted]. As per the [redacted] web site page: [redacted] "100% Satisfaction Guaranteed! or Your Money Back!!! You deserve to be warm and happy with your heating choice. [redacted] guarantees 100% satisfaction with function and performance of the [redacted] outdoor wood furnace. A warranty is only as good as the company that stands behind it. We back our products not only with the "Industry Best" [redacted] 20-Year Warranty, but also with the commitment from [redacted] to stand behind your entire furnace package - including all parts and components. You will never find a [redacted] customer who is unhappy that they purchased a [redacted] furnace!" Over 3 months have gone by and as a response to refund demands, a message from [redacted] dated 1/28/2014 states that The furnace will never be able to heat our home and we should seek restitution from Riehls Outdoor Furnaces. We have on numerous occasions prior asked in writing for a refund of moneys from the installing contractor [redacted] & [redacted] with no satisfactory result. It has been offered by Riehl's Furnaces to refund the price for the furnace alone and not the other parts of the system. This would be like refunding the cost of an engine in a lemon automobile, the parts are useless without the furnace & reverse it true.Desired Settlement: We once again request at this time for the return of all funds which we paid to Riehl's Outdoor Furnaces & [redacted] in the amount of $14,870.02 This is our third written request for these moneys to be returned our request were made 12/26/2013 1/13/14.If arrangements need to be made to retrieve any or all parts installed by Riehl's a time needs to be scheduled to perform all the necessary work to do so, as well as restoring our heating system & land to condition prior to installation.

Business

Response:

Hello [redacted]This is ** from Riehl's outdoor furnaces. I am writing in regards to the letter I received about the [redacted] complaint ([redacted])We have been trying to work with [redacted] to come up with a solution for his heating system which was installed on 10/15/2013 thru 10/17/2013 for a total amount of $14,870.02. We have not been able to agree on a settlement plan because we have proposed a few different options#1 was to install a new delivery system in the indoor heating system which [redacted] was not interested in because of the cost involved. Which I can very well understand beings the cost could have been as high as $10'000#2 was to eliminate the 4" main distribution lines in the basement and change to a manifold system and run Zi" pex pipe to each radiator which would have eliminated approximately 150 gallons of water from the existing system which would lower the btu's needed by about 84'000 btu's. I was told this is not an option because [redacted] said his house is an historic house and may not be modified on the inside#3 was to change his existing system to an open loop system and insulate the heat delivery pipes in the basement and crawl space and install a circulating pump with a lower gallons per minute rating resulting in a longer burn time which is the issue we are dealing with. This option we were willing to do at no extra cost to [redacted] if he does not see at least a 30% or greater increase in burn time.#4 was and still is returning the gxlO furnace for a full refund as long as the furnace is in the same condition as it was when I delivered it other than normal usage. The reason we are not offering a full refund on the complete system is that the heat exchangers are working fine as long as we have 170 degree water coming in from the outdoor unit which [redacted] agreed with and told me the main problem is not getting a long enough burn time per fill.. Also [redacted] said he wants to put in another outdoor boiler and would like to keep the heat exchangers.The total refund that option #4 includes are as follows (GX10 =8975.00 2 back of furnace kits at $274.83 each =$549.66 GX10 prep package =$100.33 and a chimney extension =$168.17 for a total refund of $9793.16)[redacted] has also mentioned that the GX10 is not big enough to heat his house which is not true the GX10 has a btu of 144,000 btu's. Which if you do the calculations for his house approximately 2500 sq ft with 9 ft ceiling height =22,500 cubic ft x an insulation value of 5 =112,500 btu's needed to heat his house also his garage is 30x40 =120 sq ft with 8 ft ceiling height =960 cubic ft x insulation value of 10 =9,600 btu's needed for a total of 122,100 btu's needed to heat both buildings.But what I was unaware of until after the installation was complete is that his existing indoor system holds approximately 500 gallons of water which when you do the water to water heat exchange it makes sense why we have a short burn time. We are trying to heat 500 gallons of water using 114 gallons that the GX10 holds so the outdoor unit has to cycle 5 times just to heat the 500 gallons of water.

Consumer

Response:

[To assist us in bringing this matter to a close, you must give us a reason why you are rejecting the response. If no reason is received your complaint will be closed Administratively Resolved]

Review: [redacted]

I am rejecting this response because: