Steinhorst

Review: On September 18, 2014, I visited the office of Steinhorst Plumbing in [redacted], VaI talked at length with Craig, the company manager, about having a sink drain pipe that was clogged and wanted it cleared on my property in [redacted], VAI explained that I had another plumbing company twice attempt to snake this drain earlier that day, but was unsuccessful at clearing it through snaking (this conversation is clearly documented on the Steinhorst invoice)I told him that some the drain pipes would need to be replaced, drew him a map of the pipes under the house where the problem pipes were, and asked him for an estimate to replace needed pipesCraig said that he needed to send a plumber to inspect the problem to provide such an estimateCraig said that the price for the estimate would be $79, but said it would be waived if I agreed to have them do the workWe agreed for him to send a plumber at AM the next day to inspect the problem, provide an estimate for work needed, and proceed if agreed
Around 9:AM, September 19, the Steinhorst plumber arrived and I showed him the clogged sink and pictures I had taken of the pipes under house likely needing replacementI asked him for an estimate to replace pipes, but he provided no estimateInstead he went to his truck, brought in snaking equipment and tried unsuccessfully to snake the drain under the sink as had been tried twice unsuccessfully the day beforeWhen the additional snaking didn't work, he said he would try snaking the drain again through the vent pipe on the roofAgain I told him that the pipes would need to be replaced and asked several times how much all of this unsuccessful, unneeded snaking was costingHe didn't respond to my requests for prices or estimates, said that snaking from the roof would likely clear the drain, and proceeded to do so (even though three previous snaking attempts had failed)
When the fourth attempt of snaking also failed, this time from the roof, the Steinhorst plumber said that he would need to pull out the sink cabinet and replace the pipe in the wall that goes to the crawl space under the houseSuch pipe replacement is what I originally requested for an estimateI asked him again for a price estimate and how much I owed so far, but he provided no estimate for this or for any work already doneUsing a hammer, the plumber then broke away about two square feet of the bathroom wall and tilesHe replaced about a two foot length of pipe and elbow that clearly had solid internal blockageWith a new drain pipe installed and now flowing, the plumber started to pack up to leaveI realized that he never patched the two square feet hole that he tore out of my bathroom wall and I asked him to finish the job by restoring the wall to its original conditionI also noted that he broke away much more of the wall than was needed to replace the pipeHe said he didn't do wall work and said that the excess wall breakage was accidentalI also asked him to replenish the pipe sealant he had removed around the drain pipe through the floor to prevent air passage and insect entry through the gap around the pipeHe said he didn't do that kind of work eitherWithout ever providing any estimate that I requested many times, the Steinhorst plumber then handed me an invoice for a total bill of $
The next day, I called the Steinhorst manager, Craig, with whom I originally spokeI explained that
(1) I never received the estimate I had requested to replace pipes,
(2) the plumber did unnecessary snaking that was unlikely to be successful (because we all knew it had been tried twice unsuccessfully the previous day),
(3) the work had not been completed to restore the large hole the plumber tore in the wall, and
(4) $was an excessively high charge for replacing about two feet of pipe
Craig now said that the plumber was operating under itemized charges that they have standardized for such work, in this case $for replacing a pipe in the wall and $for the two unsuccessful snaking jobsI told Craig that this is the first time I have been informed about such prices even though I had repeatedly requested estimates from both him and the plumber many times, but never received any estimatesThe invoice the plumber gave me disagrees with Craig's reply by listing only, "Replace lavy drain inside wall and crawlspace" for $as the only work done, however this invoice does specify (by Craig) my original request for an estimate that I still have not receivedCraig said that he would compensate my complaints by providing a free estimate for additional work and perhaps a price break only if I agreed to have additional work done
The Revdex.com asks its participant companies to "Make known all material facts in both written and verbal representations, remembering that misrepresentation may result not only from direct statements but by omitting or obscuring relevant facts." Steinhorst failed to achieve this part of the Revdex.com Code of Business PracticesThe Revdex.com specifies the business "Clearly disclose to customers
terms of any written contract" (i.e., what work will be done and at what price), and "any restrictions or limitations imposed" (i.e., such as refusal to repair the excavated wall and repack pipe seals)Steinhorst failed by not providing requested price estimates or any specifications of work to be done for those estimatesI requested estimates continuously as well as price updates throughout the job without any responseI still have not received the original requested estimate.Desired Settlement: I am requesting the following:
(1) As supposedly professional and experienced plumbers, Steinhorst should have known that continuing to do snaking work after several unsuccessful prior attempts would not clear the blocked drain pipe and should have advised me so, especially since I had originally requested only an estimate for pipe replacement and not for snakingThis unnecessary work served only to inflate the bill (Craig now tells me this is $of the $invoice) and needs to be refunded
(2) A charge of $for replacing about two feet of pipe in a wall is an excessive price and thus should include restoration of the two square feet wall damage created by the plumbers' workCraig says that the pipe's replacement represents of the total bill, but never mentioned this until work was completedEven this high charge should include restoring the wall damaged after making the repair, but this price was never disclosed nor was this part of work completedThe work to repair the damaged wall needs to be completed or compensate for the damage to be repaired by someone else
Business
Response:
Please excuse my delay in my response, I had been attending to family matters.I would like to thank the Revdex.com for giving me the opportunity to respond to [redacted]'s complaintPlease excuse me as I cannot write as eloquently as [redacted]I write, spell and call it as I see it, as best as a plumber can, I'm upset that he has filed a complaint against SteinhorstAs your records will show Steinhorst has an "+ A" ratting with the Revdex.comAnd we work very hard to maintain itIt is a personal matter hereSo, when I read the things that [redacted] wrote and then recall our conservations, I just couldn't believe what he saidAlmost everything he has written is only half true or extremely exaggerated just to benefit him.As [redacted] stated, he did come to Steinhorst shopBut, almost every statement after his opening is falseHe did come to my shopBut, he did not come to my shop to hire usHe walked in with a very bad attitude and said "I want to talk to a plumber!" I offered my service and he just stared at meFinally he asked "your a plumber?" In disbellef - Not all plumbers are knuckle draggersThen he said he doesn't want anything, not here to hire us, just wants adviceBasically Just tell me how to do it myself, gave him free information for about minutes.He stated that another plumbing company had just left his house without finishing the job and he was really, really upset with themHe spoke to me about how they had tried to snake his lavy sink drain line clear and failedHe told me before the other company started, the drain line kind of, sort of drainedBut when they left, the drain was now completely stopped upThey made it worseHe was mad at them and wanted me to rmore or less verify what they did was right or wrongHe asked me what I would do if this, or that happenedIt was like I was taking a high school test or something And, he even wanted to argue with me on some of my answersHe was very upset the whole time, explained what we would do and the sequence of events that things should be done in.His statement said he told me that two other companies had failed to clear his drain, but that's not trueHe only told me of one plumber failureWe found out later from him that other plumbing companies had failed to clear his drain lineI told him he should call them backI told him several times he should call the backI asked if it was a licensed plumberNo answerHis statement says that he drew me a mapAgain, that's not trueWhen dealing with someone who thinks they know everything, but don't, and are unable to explain it, I usually start drawingI had to draw out what fixtures were where and how they should be tied into each other in a bathroom groupHe would get mad and snatch the pen from me and tell me he knows this and he knows that.Eventually, two options we offered and agreed upon for a plumber to come out the next day, And - want to be very clear about thisI told him prices-ball starting prices - before we even went to his homeI told him over and over that theses were sight unseen-ball park pricesAs always, when a customer pushes and pushes for prices before anyone has seen the job site, I tell them "Sight unseen - starting-ball park prices." So, starting prices were give and discussed in detail - repeatedlyHe agreed on the "guesstlmate" prices and we even shook hands on it$as a service call - which is written on the signed work order, Snaking the line starting at $And re-piping the lavy drain in the crawl space, sight unseen, was starting at $1000.Option #1: Try and use a cable snake machine and clear the lavy drain line by snakingI told him there are possible ways to try snake his lavy drain line clear- A) By running the snake through the lavy pop-upEasiest and least effectiveHe said the other company already tried that( He said the other company damaged his counter top by trying to snake that wayThen, when our plumber was out, he tried to blame him for the damage done by the other companyI had briefed the plumber about the damage, and when [redacted] tried to blame my plumber, the plumber called him on it saying he already knew about it and the other companyThe subject was dropped at that point) B} Pull the trap below the lavy drain and snake from thereHe said the other company had already tried that too, I asked what kind of snake machine they used and we both agreed the Steinhorst machine was larger and more powerful, C) Snake the lavy vent line from the roofAfter explaining that to him, he said he had asked the other company why don't you try snaking from the roof? The other company told him we don't do roofs! (too steep and Scary - plus takes men to get the snake machine up on the roof and can be very dangerous)D) Crawl down into the crawl space under the home, disassemble the drain line under and snake from there, He told me that another and different company about years ago tried to repair the line from the crawl spaceThey rep-piped one exposed section in the open crawl spaceBut never got the drain openHe said that he asked the other last plumber, by this time who was In his car, why don't you snake it from the crawl spaceAccording to [redacted], he said the other plumber said we don't do crawl spaces and just drove away,So snaking was discussed at great length, And he clearly understood that basic snaking - A & B starting at $Snaking C & D, the plumber would have to see first, but cost more than the first two methods.Option #2:The second option given was a much bigger jobThis was to remove all of the old savy drain line and repipe it in PVC[redacted] and I did discus this at lengthAgain, he pushed me into giving him ball park - sight unseen pricesWhat he is not telling you is the condition of the favy drain lineAnd what he was telling me was only partial of the informationNowhere did he list that the home was built in That he drain line is original to the home and is years old! That the drain line installed was galvanized pipeHe failed to inform the Revdex.com, and me, that plumbing companies over the last years had tried and failed to clear the drainThat his has tenants living in the with a bathroom sink drain line that hasn't worked in two years! And the all of a sudden he has to have the line clearHe told the plumbers several times that the drain must be working today.So, even before we went to his home ball park prices were disclosedPrices and the order of priority the work was to be performed in was clear between usHe chose for us to try to snake first, and if that fails, then give an estimate for the re-pipe, As he and I discussed, he wanted to try snaking the fine clear first to try and save moneyI agreed with him for us to try to snake the line clear first, Exhaust all options before going to the one job no other company wanted to doPlease see my attached work order ticket #[redacted]He states that my work order says that he only wants the re-pipe estimateBut, that's not trueThe work order says "Walk home and determine where to try to clear the drain line, Snake from roof vent, snake from wall or snake from crawl spaceAlso, give an estimate to repipe the is the vent pipe that needs to be Snaked and how dangerous it isRemember that other plumbing companies told we don't Snake from the roof, Because the roof vent line is tied directly in to the lavy drain, this is the next step to be done, And because nobody was brave enough to try snaking from the roof there was a good possibility this may clear the lavy drain line[redacted] was told all of this, given prices by the plumber of $to try snaking from the roof vent and authorized the workSee plumber's attached statementAgain the second snaking attempt was done trying to save him money VSthe replping in the crawl space.The roof shaking failed too, The plumber called and asked if he can spend the rest of the day thereHe had already spoken to [redacted] and given prices to now do the replpe of the lawy drain in the crawl space[redacted] was told a final price for the day at that timeThe $service call wavedThe $for the first snaking attempt from inside wavedThe snaking from the roof was to be $and the total for the re-plpe will be $The plumber and his helper both have written statements attached saying [redacted] was told the total price for the day was to be $When the plumber called me at the office to see if he can spend the rest of the day there, I asked him directly about prices and verified that he has informed [redacted] of the $1950, for the day, then cleared the rest of the jobs assigned to that plumber for the day and let them workPlease see the two attached statements from the plumber and his helper.[redacted] likes to make the re-pipe in the basement sound easyI'm not sure whyPlease remember that other companies had failed to clear the line and he was told from another plumber - he is not doing work in that crawl spaceNobody wanted to do the crawl space job because it was a very dirty, nasty job in a small confined areaAll the work had to be done while laying on your belly, There was not enough clearance in some places to even roll overThe plumber had to work by flash light and drop light to see what he was doingEach tool and part and to be handed in one by one and scooted up to where the plumber was workingThere were points that took one man from above and one man below to accomplish the workRemember that the men are cutting out a years old Galvanized metal drain line in a crawl space in a home bullt in 1944.[redacted] keeps saying that "about two feet of pipe" was replacedNot trueIt was about to feetThe line was replaced going from the ground floor bathroom wall, then golng inside the wall, through the sub floor then out into the crawl space.I believe on purpose he doesn't tell you how hard this lavy drain line re-pipe really isRemember other companies already failed and told him straight up - they aren't working down in that crawl spaceJust to start, to prep for the re-pipe they had to shut down the hot water and cold Water Supply down to the lavy faucetDisconnect the water supply lines and drain them downThe men then took apart the lavy drain line and trapThen they disconnected the pand its activator rod/armThey pulled the drain line going into the wallThey then had to remove the vanity counter top from the vanity and wallThen the two men pulled the vanity itself and set it asideEverything came out down to just a pipe sticking out of the wall.The plaster is his own doing tooThe plumber never opened the wall as he saidHe used a dry wall saw and cut an accessHe never bashed it open with a hammerThe wall was cut openBut, please remember original "Plaster" wall from In some places it did crumble rather than cut - plaster walls, not drywallThe plumber told him before he started to re-pipe he was going to have to cuts wall somewhere in order to do this jobThe plumber also told him that he was a "plumber - not a drywall man." He offered [redacted] our handyman repair services[redacted] had already spent too much money and told the plumber and his helper that he was going to take care of the drywall himselfThat he would do the wall repairs, so he could save moneyHe told both the plumber and his helper this.[redacted] even complained that the second man who came to help, because he went to lunchHe was not charged by the time, but, by the jobIt had no effect on the total price of the jobI ask [redacted] if he gets a lunch on a hour shift where he works? Also, [redacted] should know that the young man has a medical condition that requires him to eatWhen [redacted] called two days after the job to complain, I did not tell him that helper has to eatNames and condition withheld, but I'd be happy to disclose in private if someone has the need to know.[redacted] called two days later to complainWe spoke on a Saturday for a very long timeWhen he called he was very upsetHe was stating all the same things that are written or his complaint, I reexplained everything, I reminded him of our conservation about starting ball park estimate I gave hirnI explained just how difficult the job wasInformed him that two men, at hours combine labor $was a very good priceIf no prices were ever giving, then why did he call me two days later, on a Saturday, all upset and saying "Craig, you told me the re-pipe was only going to be a thousand dollarsThat's what you told me - a thousand dollars" I then reminded him that I told him that I said "sight unseen - guessing-starting at $1000."Just the fact that he would call me and say I never told him prices, and all I had to do was remind him that yes - yes I did give him prices, and then he even quoted back to me the starting re-pipe price of $1000, told me he was going to be someone I could not please.So I did set out to try to please himI reminded him that I had already not charged him $for the service callWaved the $for snaking the lavy from its drain lineI wanted to try to really help himWhen he was at my shop, almost half of our conservation was about the fact that his rental home has no water pressureWhen his tenant uses water, they get some water pressure, but only for a moment, Then the water pressure dies down to a trickleWhile at my shop he had told me that he had [redacted] county Water Authority out to his homeHe told me that FCWA had tested his pressure where their line ended and they have no problem with their line, and could not tell why his home has no waterI told him (Just more free information) of all the possibilities of why no water pressure.While my plumber was there, and at no charge, he diagnosed why the home has no water pressure at all, Something the last couple of plumbing companies and FCWA were unable to figure outAs mentioned earlier the home was built in 1944, it is on city water, but, the water service (the main water supply line from city water that brings in all the home's potable water) is still the original one inch galvanized lineThe water service line is years old! Pretty easy to figure out the line is clogged with years of sediment and most likely the galvanization was worn offThat is why the water just dies down to almost nothing when turned on.After talking for ever about the pricing of snaking and the re-pipe, realizing that there was no further explaining it and that he would not be happy unless I give him all his money back, tried to make him happy another wayI told him I know why you tenant has almost no water, That the water service line must be replaced, I told him straight up that I don't think you and I are going to be able to agree on the previous workI asked why don't you let me try to make it up another waySteinhorst does allot of water service digsWe are licensed and bondedI even carry a VDOT bondWhy don't we do what's most important to you investment property and you tenantLet my men come out and walk your propertyLet me give you a free estimate for replacing you water serviceI know your tenant and you are unhappy, And bet the county would be unhappy about the tenant with no water pressure and almost no waterI pretty sure that its unhealthy to let you tenant bath and drink water from that old clogged galvanized water service lineLet my guy walk the yard, inspect the basement where the year old line enters the houseLet me give you a free estimate that I normally charge $for - no obligations at allAnd promised him that I would beat anybodies price to replace the water serviceThat I would more than make up for his unhappiness with the last job.He and I talked about this a for a very long time about his need to replace his failed water lineHe asked me a million questions about how the water service line would be replacedI spoke about digging it, pulling it, to mole it or to lateral boring itI even tied into maps on line while talking with him, I was able from satellite photos and [redacted] to even see where his old water service line started in the front yardI spoke about how Steinhorst would pull permits, get county Inspection and how we could complete any dig in daysanswered all his questions, he was impressed and agreed to my proposalHe seemed excited and I promised him that I can beat any price out there and could save him enough money that the re-pipe issue would be lald to restI schedule with him to send out my "Digger" on Monday ASAP, and he picked the time frame.Late Sunday night, I received a phone call from [redacted]He was very suppressed I answered the phone - Told me he was expecting a machine to answerBut, I almost always answer the phoneHe called and canceled Mondays appointmentI asked why and from his shortness with me, I knew right away that all bets were offI had that feeling that it is going to just come down to everything free, or write the Revdex.comAnd so here I am responding to the Revdex.com.Please remember that Steinhorst accomplished what three companies had failed to doWe were the only company that got his drain line workingAnd draining like a top tooSteinhorst was the only ones that were willing to do the really dangerous work (the roof snaking) and the dirty work no other Company wanted to doOther Companies flat out refused to do the crawl space[redacted] told me directly that he asked another plumber what about working in the crawl space, and according to [redacted], the plumber Said I don't do crawl spaces and drove awayHe minimizes the work to make it sound easyBut the truth is that it took two men about hours of combined labor to fix his problem, He states over and over again that no one ever gave him any pricesThat is false, I myself, gave him starting prices the day before and we even shook hands on itAnd I also have written statements from both the plumber and the helper that prices were given to him at each step along the wayThat they explained each step they were doingAnd that he authorized each job done that day.I know people, and my gut feeling is that he just doesn't want to pay, Here is a man who told the plumber, while at his house, that the lavy drain line hasn't worked in some two yearsAnd he has tenants living thereIn addition, the tenants are living with water corning through year old clogged up galvanized water Service line and he has no since of urgency addressing what hlstenants are bathing in and drinkingHe is just upset that they complained and no water pressure, [redacted] wants this and says thatBut, I know that most of what he is saying is untrueAnd the rest he left out only to booster his argumentHe has made this two man Job, total hours of labor Job sound like it was all unauthorized and should only taken an hour or so to completeHe states that no prices were given, but I have statements from the two men at his house that say that they did give prices - an oftenIn addition, I gave [redacted] starting prices myself-face to face, And we even shook hands on itI will be happy to give him what he wants if he comes back to my shop, stands in front of me, looks me square in the eye, and tells me to my face that I never told him, or gave him any prices, any prices at allTher, look the plumber and his helper, straight in the face and tell thern that they never gave him any prices eitherTell the two men that they never sald anything about prices or about what they are doingThey just showed up and just did what they wanted to do all day long in his house, with him watching them all day, and then presented him with a $bill,
Consumer
Response:
Review: [redacted]
October 14,
I have attached text explaining my reasons for not accepting the response made by MrS[redacted] of Steinhorst Plumbing in the attached pdf file "[redacted] response to S[redacted]'s response.pdf"
I have also attached one photo showing wall damage that still remains from the plumber's use of a hammer/axe
Please contact me if you did not receive the attachments
Regards,
Business
Response:
Sirs,I would like to thank [redacted] of the Revdex.com, and [redacted] from [redacted] County for their help.I have read the latest response from [redacted]After reading it, I don't feel that there is anything else that I can say about this matterI don't think that I have ever been in a situation with a customer as with [redacted]We are both so far apart on any agreement, that I feel there is no resolution to his complaint other than to refund him his money.He stated that if I refund him his "$450," that he would "consider this case resolved." So today, Friday 10-24-at 2:PM, I did a credit refund for $back onto [redacted]'s credit card (Authorization # [redacted])As he requested "an electronic credit card refund" was done.I do so hoping to resolve this issue and make [redacted] happyIn doing this, Steinhorst admits no wrong doing and excepts no liability in this matterIt is simply a gesture done in good faith in an attempt to resolve a problemI am honoring [redacted]'s request hopping he will be satisfied and we can close this matter.Again, I would like to thank all parties involved for their helpSTEINHORST PLUMBING HVAC & REM
Consumer
Response:
I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted], and find that this resolution is satisfactory to meI have confirmed with my credit card company that MrS[redacted] has refunded $of the $in charges for plumbing work requested to replace a section of drain pipe that was cloggedSince this part of the bill ($450) was itemized by MrS[redacted] to be for work that was not related to replacing the clogged drain pipe, I am pleased that he has agreed to return it and I now consider the case to be resolvedMrS[redacted] has impressive expertise in plumbing, and he truly has a talented plumbing staffAs such, I believe his company could enjoy even greater business success by providing clear, comprehensive, and written pre-work estimates when requested
Thanks again
Regards,