Virtual Vision Computing

Further any domains or use of the name Budget Hearing Centers or derivations of that name used by Virtual Vision with or without approvalHello Paul,I have received in the USPS mail a Revdex.com complaint for Product Issues.I'm sorry your level of frustration has grown to the point of your dissatisfaction.I...

have read your complaint a few times, and have noted the key points which I will address below.There are discrepancies in your complaint but that is ok,  I will address only the specific concerns you have stated.1) Budget Hearing, is requesting cancellation of service via the Revdex.com complaint.ANSWER) Budget Hearing is not, and has never been under a contract.  All Virtual Vision services are month to month.  Our policy is that if we are not providing the service that you need you have the right to use the company you feel is best to help you.  We will help you move your services.2) Budget Hearing, is stating in his complaint that the correct phone number, address, and business description be disseminated properly.ANSWER) Budget Hearing paid for his website and Google My business, aka google maps, to be updated with the correct information. This was accomplished and is correct.  The product to expand the business information to other, 40+ locations on the internet is accomplish via a product that Budget Hearing has never purchased from Virtual Vision;  3) Budget Hearing is stating that the Facebook advertising was marketing to an incorrect group.  Specifically the wrong geographic location being world wide and secondly the wrong age group being 18 years old on up.ANSWER) This is not correct.  Attached are Facebook Pay Per click Campaign settings. See budgethearing-FB-PPC-Settings.jpgFrom this image you can see the age group setting was set to 45+, and that the radius targeting was set to a 50 mile radius of [redacted]. 4) Budget Hearing stated again, that the Facebook advertising was marketing to an incorrect group.  Specifically the wrong age group in the last 4 months,  being 18 years old on up.ANSWER) This is not correct again.  The 2nd image attached is a report of the demographics served from complaint time frame, "the last four months".  From Oct 2015 to Jan 2016; See budgethearing-FB-PPC-Report.jpg;  This image is the report generated from the Facebook pay per click results.  This report shows the ads were "only" served to people in the target age group 45+.  In the Budget Hearing complaint, Paul specifies the age group to be set to 55+ and the radius targeting be set to 25 miles of [redacted].  In the setup process, with the Virtual Vision account manager, the designer, and with customer approval these settings were update from 55 to 45 for age, and the mileage expanded from 25 to 50.  All changes are always reviewed and approved with the customer. A few small changes, but all within the marketing scope of Budget Hearing Centers.  The complaint states, age 18 and up, and worldwide, and you can clearly see this was not setup as Paul describes.  Again, We have more confusion but I'm sure the reports and notes I have provided make clear what was running, where it was running and to who.  The geography requested was implemented correctly. There has been much confusion regarding this account on the Facebook PPC and overall marketing.  The Virtual Vision phone call and email history within Sales Force reiterates the confusion and the times the marketing was reviewed by Virtual Vision with Paul; We always work with the customer to help them understand but as you can see, there are still discrepancies even after we have provided reporting which show differently.5) Budget Hearing stated in the complaint that "August through February waste of time cost close to $3000.00"ANSWER) The new contract for Facebook Pay Per Click marketing was agreed to on Oct 20th 2015, not August and this marketing was cancelled on Jan 20th;  Your total recurring costs for this marketing was $336.06; $150 charged by Virtual Vision and $186.06 charged by Facebook.    As a matter of stating, This accounts total recurring expenses for your website, social media and PPC  from Virtual Vision, from Oct 1 2015 to Jan 31st 2016 totaled $586.06;   You can see here that the total expenses $586.06 are not even close to the stated complaint of "close to $3000.00";     Paul, We have in our notes other expenses you  "thought" Virtual Vision was charging you.  These were charges from other companies for other services.  Maybe you are making this same mistake.6) Budget Hearing stated in the complaint that his complaint about money is close to another complaint from another company.  ANSWER) We handle all our customers with respect.  Please read the response from Virtual Vision on this other complaint.7) Budget Hearing stated he had to "cancel a credit card to report the card use without his permission. "ANSWER) Virtual Vision only charges customers who agree to services and for the correct amount. We never charge a credit card without the customers knowledge.Virtual Vision will do its best to help this customer with their desired outcome.Desired Outcome 1:  "The desired outcome is for a complete refund of all monies paid to Virtual Vision for Social Media, Facebook, advertising"  The purchase price is stated at $1000.00 and the disputed amount is $1000.00; ANSWER) The purchase price and disputed amounts are not correct, based off numbers stated in 5) above. The services for Social Media, Facebook, and PPC advertising were run properly and in accordance to what was agreed upon.  The refund is respectfully denied.Desired Outcome 2:  "and a complete release of my company website as is without Virtual Vision compromising it"ANSWER) We do not lose customers often, but when we do, we always help the company, respectfully and in accordance to the customers needs. We will release your marketing based on the Terms and Conditions stated in your agreement and on our website.Desired Outcome 3:  "Third I am asking that Virtual Vision release any and all ties to my Facebook site the site has been turned over to another company already. "ANSWER) This has already been completed, and stated so by Budget Hearing. We do not lose customers often, but when we do, we always help the company, respectfully and in accordance to the customers needs. We will release your marketing based on the Terms and Conditions stated in your agreement and on our website.Desired Outcome 4:  "Further any domains or use of the name Budget Hearing Centers or derivations of that name used by Virtual Vision with or without approval and logins with passwords must be immediately surrendered to Budget Hearing Centers Management.ANSWER) We do not lose customers often, but when we do, we always help the company, respectfully and in accordance to the customers needs. We will release your domain name based on the Terms and Conditions stated in your agreement.Paul, Based on your request to cancel service via the Revdex.com complaint, I will enter a removal order for your services.  Please make sure to be in contact with us to proceed.  We will help you.  Paul, I will also call you Paul.Thank you.Respectfully, Andy [redacted] Virtual Vision Computing Co. [redacted] 
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[redacted] fax [redacted] and logins with passwords must be immediately surrendered to Budget Hearing Centers Management.Hello Paul,I have received in the USPS mail a Revdex.com complaint for Product Issues.I'm sorry your level of frustration has grown to the point of your dissatisfaction.I have read your complaint a few times, and have noted the key points which I will address below.There are discrepancies in your complaint but that is ok,  I will address only the specific concerns you have stated.1) Budget Hearing, is requesting cancellation of service via the Revdex.com complaint.ANSWER) Budget Hearing is not, and has never been under a contract.  All Virtual Vision services are month to month.  Our policy is that if we are not providing the service that you need you have the right to use the company you feel is best to help you.  We will help you move your services.2) Budget Hearing, is stating in his complaint that the correct phone number, address, and business description be disseminated properly.ANSWER) Budget Hearing paid for his website and Google My business, aka google maps, to be updated with the correct information. This was accomplished and is correct.  The product to expand the business information to other, 40+ locations on the internet is accomplish via a product that Budget Hearing has never purchased from Virtual Vision;  3) Budget Hearing is stating that the Facebook advertising was marketing to an incorrect group.  Specifically the wrong geographic location being world wide and secondly the wrong age group being 18 years old on up.ANSWER) This is not correct.  Attached are Facebook Pay Per click Campaign settings. See budgethearing-FB-PPC-Settings.jpgFrom this image you can see the age group setting was set to 45+, and that the radius targeting was set to a 50 mile radius of [redacted]. 4) Budget Hearing stated again, that the Facebook advertising was marketing to an incorrect group.  Specifically the wrong age group in the last 4 months,  being 18 years old on up.ANSWER) This is not correct again.  The 2nd image attached is a report of the demographics served from complaint time frame, "the last four months".  From Oct 2015 to Jan 2016; See budgethearing-FB-PPC-Report.jpg;  This image is the report generated from the Facebook pay per click results.  This report shows the ads were "only" served to people in the target age group 45+.  In the Budget Hearing complaint, Paul specifies the age group to be set to 55+ and the radius targeting be set to 25 miles of [redacted].  In the setup process, with the Virtual Vision account manager, the designer, and with customer approval these settings were update from 55 to 45 for age, and the mileage expanded from 25 to 50.  All changes are always reviewed and approved with the customer. A few small changes, but all within the marketing scope of Budget Hearing Centers.  The complaint states, age 18 and up, and worldwide, and you can clearly see this was not setup as Paul describes.  Again, We have more confusion but I'm sure the reports and notes I have provided make clear what was running, where it was running and to who.  The geography requested was implemented correctly. There has been much confusion regarding this account on the Facebook PPC and overall marketing.  The Virtual Vision phone call and email history within Sales Force reiterates the confusion and the times the marketing was reviewed by Virtual Vision with Paul; We always work with the customer to help them understand but as you can see, there are still discrepancies even after we have provided reporting which show differently.5) Budget Hearing stated in the complaint that "August through February waste of time cost close to $3000.00"ANSWER) The new contract for Facebook Pay Per Click marketing was agreed to on Oct 20th 2015, not August and this marketing was cancelled on Jan 20th;  Your total recurring costs for this marketing was $336.06; $150 charged by Virtual Vision and $186.06 charged by Facebook.    As a matter of stating, This accounts total recurring expenses for your website, social media and PPC  from Virtual Vision, from Oct 1 2015 to Jan 31st 2016 totaled $586.06;   You can see here that the total expenses $586.06 are not even close to the stated complaint of "close to $3000.00";     Paul, We have in our notes other expenses you  "thought" Virtual Vision was charging you.  These were charges from other companies for other services.  Maybe you are making this same mistake.6) Budget Hearing stated in the complaint that his complaint about money is close to another complaint from another company.  ANSWER) We handle all our customers with respect.  Please read the response from Virtual Vision on this other complaint.7) Budget Hearing stated he had to "cancel a credit card to report the card use without his permission. "ANSWER) Virtual Vision only charges customers who agree to services and for the correct amount. We never charge a credit card without the customers knowledge.Virtual Vision will do its best to help this customer with their desired outcome.Desired Outcome 1:  "The desired outcome is for a complete refund of all monies paid to Virtual Vision for Social Media, Facebook, advertising"  The purchase price is stated at $1000.00 and the disputed amount is $1000.00; ANSWER) The purchase price and disputed amounts are not correct, based off numbers stated in 5) above. The services for Social Media, Facebook, and PPC advertising were run properly and in accordance to what was agreed upon.  The refund is respectfully denied.Desired Outcome 2:  "and a complete release of my company website as is without Virtual Vision compromising it"ANSWER) We do not lose customers often, but when we do, we always help the company, respectfully and in accordance to the customers needs. We will release your marketing based on the Terms and Conditions stated in your agreement and on our website.Desired Outcome 3:  "Third I am asking that Virtual Vision release any and all ties to my Facebook site the site has been turned over to another company already. "ANSWER) This has already been completed, and stated so by Budget Hearing. We do not lose customers often, but when we do, we always help the company, respectfully and in accordance to the customers needs. We will release your marketing based on the Terms and Conditions stated in your agreement and on our website.Desired Outcome 4:  "Further any domains or use of the name Budget Hearing Centers or derivations of that name used by Virtual Vision with or without approval and logins with passwords must be immediately surrendered to Budget Hearing Centers Management.ANSWER) We do not lose customers often, but when we do, we always help the company, respectfully and in accordance to the customers needs. We will release your domain name based on the Terms and Conditions stated in your agreement.Paul, Based on your request to cancel service via the Revdex.com complaint, I will enter a removal order for your services.  Please make sure to be in contact with us to proceed.  We will help you.  Paul, I will also call you Paul.Thank you.Respectfully, Andy [redacted] Virtual Vision Computing Co. 1013 N 3rd Ave Wausau WI 54401 888 638 5044 715 675 9194 715 551 3994 cell 715 675 0469 fax [redacted]

Revdex.com:
I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted], and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
[The information may all be well and good but the bottom line for any business is Return on Investment, (ROI).  While working with this company the ROI for my practice was negative.  Virtual Vision will come back with numerous excuses but the bottom line is that they did not perform.  Secondly, Virtual Vision indicating they will assist our new web company move our website is a joke.  The new web company stated that the programming software is such that it is not something they have seen like CMS.  Instead it is some type of proprietary software that make it very difficult to move it and impossible to create a capability to edit the text and images.  In other words they have set up our website with a their own programming that almost guarantees that customers can't leave or else if they do it is a major problem.  I will quote our independent company that we asked to look at moving the website, " Their programming is just another way to force people to continue with them".  That was not explained up front other than, sure you can move if you wish to.  Just another example of my opening remarks about credibility.   I remain with my request for the settlement amount of money paid for nothing, but also now for the cost that I am going to have to pay for the site to be redone in normal programming code to be able to make changes. ]
Regards,
Paul [redacted]

Paul, I understand you disagree with the response from Virtual Vision. I will respond to the additional claims you have in your complaint.The BHC below = Budget Hearing Centers, which indicates a statement made by Paul with Budget Hearing Centers.Our response follows with ANSWER)BHC) Budget Hearing Centers spent close to $3,000 with Virtual Vision during 2015.  ANSWER) Your total payments for a build of a website and your marketing with Virtual vision was 2,609.75BHC) Not only was the Facebook advertising geared to the wrong demographics but also the Website advertising inept.   ANSWER) The demographics for the Facebook marketing were and are correct.  See attached reports for the correct demographics that were run for Facebook. budgethearing-FB-PPC-Report.jpg; ANSWER) Regarding the "Website advertising inept",  Your google analytic reports for 2015 show:2,594 individual users; 91.2% are new; and 4,338 page views;   We have provided you the reporting.  I wish there was more we could do for you.BHC) Received only one hit during their entire marketing campaign period.  That is not only a failure but indicates ineptitude.  I also have advertising evidence that indicates to the contrary of what you are saying.  ANSWER) Please see the attached report showing 8 referrals from Facebook, not 1 as you stated.  budgethearing-FB-clicks.jpgBHC) Your Facebook person may have corrected the demographics late in the game but it was incorrect for a majority of time.  ANSWER) Incorrect. The Facebook marketing was entered correctly the whole time and the proof is in the facebook reporting.  The FB PPC marketing was agreed to Oct 20th 2015, order entered Oct 23rd 2015;  Report is from Sept 2015 to March 2016; Please see the attached report for Facebook PPC which shows the demographics with "no user under the age of 45"; budgethearing-FB-PPC-Report.jpgBHC) In addition I received emails from Google asking me if I wanted to expand my age coverage that it was currently set for, along with showing percentage responses by age.  The majority grouped under 55. ANSWER) Your email referring to Google adjusting your age and location does not pertain to the facebook marketing.  We have reviewed this prior.BHC) I have already discussed moving my website and was told by your colleague in writing that I would essentially leave each page behind, even the photos that I bought from photo aggregators for the site.  ANSWER) Not correct.  If you have this email, I would like to know who sent it, so we can make corrections.  Your pictures and content are yours.  You may use any website tool you likeBHC) Your statements in reference to website disposition and Facebook page disposition are all clouded with per our Terms and Conditions.  ANSWER) We have been specific with our reports that are attached here to show you the results.Paul, I'm glad we had the opportunity to talk on the phone.  We have been diligent in our reporting to you and these reports have been attached on this complaint.  The desired settlement of a refund is respectfully denied.  We will help you move to the new company and I'm glad you have found a company you are comfortable with.  I will call you April 5th around 9 Am CST, as we discussed.Andy [redacted].Andy [redacted] Virtual Vision Computing Co. [redacted] 
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[redacted] fax [redacted] On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Andy [redacted] <[redacted]> wrote:Hello Paul and BradPaul, Thank you for taking my call today.Based on our call:We have agreed to continue the Budget Hearing service with Virtual Vision for April 2016;  You said you would pay for service in April. Thank you.We have set an appointment for a phone call on April 5th 2016 at 9 am, to help you with items you need to move your marketing.I have that date set in my calendar and I will call you Tuesday the 5th.I will respond to your additional comment in the Revdex.com complaint yet today.Thank youAndy [redacted] Virtual Vision Computing Co. [redacted] 
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[redacted] fax [redacted] Hello Paul and BradPaul, Thank you for taking my call today.Based on our call:We have agreed to continue the Budget Hearing service with Virtual Vision for April 2016;  You said you would pay for service in April. Thank you.We have set an appointment for a phone call on April 5th 2016 at 9 am, to help you with items you need to move your marketing.I have that date set in my calendar and I will call you Tuesday the 5th.I will respond to your additional comment in the Revdex.com complaint yet today.Thank youAndy [redacted] Virtual Vision Computing Co. 1013 N 3rd Ave Wausau WI 54401 888 638 5044 715 675 9194 715 551 3994 cell 715 675 0469 fax [redacted] Hello Paul and BradPaul, Thank you for taking my call today.Based on our call:We have agreed to continue the Budget Hearing service with Virtual Vision for April 2016;  You said you would pay for service in April. Thank you.We have set an appointment for a phone call on April 5th 2016 at 9 am, to help you with items you need to move your marketing.I have that date set in my calendar and I will call you Tuesday the 5th.I will respond to your additional comment in the Revdex.com complaint yet today.Thank youAndy [redacted] Virtual Vision Computing Co. 1013 N 3rd Ave Wausau WI 54401 888 638 5044 715 675 9194 715 551 3994 cell 715 675 0469 fax [redacted] Paul, I understand you disagree with the response from Virtual Vision. I will respond to the additional claims you have in your complaint.The BHC below = Budget Hearing Centers, which indicates a statement made by Paul with Budget Hearing Centers.Our response follows with ANSWER)BHC) Budget Hearing Centers spent close to $3,000 with Virtual Vision during 2015.  ANSWER) Your total payments for a build of a website and your marketing with Virtual vision was 2,609.75BHC) Not only was the Facebook advertising geared to the wrong demographics but also the Website advertising inept.   ANSWER) The demographics for the Facebook marketing were and are correct.  See attached reports for the correct demographics that were run for Facebook. budgethearing-FB-PPC-Report.jpg; ANSWER) Regarding the "Website advertising inept",  Your google analytic reports for 2015 show:2,594 individual users; 91.2% are new; and 4,338 page views;   We have provided you the reporting.  I wish there was more we could do for you.BHC) Received only one hit during their entire marketing campaign period.  That is not only a failure but indicates ineptitude.  I also have advertising evidence that indicates to the contrary of what you are saying.  ANSWER) Please see the attached report showing 8 referrals from Facebook, not 1 as you stated.  budgethearing-FB-clicks.jpgBHC) Your Facebook person may have corrected the demographics late in the game but it was incorrect for a majority of time.  ANSWER) Incorrect. The Facebook marketing was entered correctly the whole time and the proof is in the facebook reporting.  The FB PPC marketing was agreed to Oct 20th 2015, order entered Oct 23rd 2015;  Report is from Sept 2015 to March 2016; Please see the attached report for Facebook PPC which shows the demographics with "no user under the age of 45"; budgethearing-FB-PPC-Report.jpgBHC)In addition I received emails from Google asking me if I wanted to expand my age coverage that it was currently set for, along with showing percentage responses by age.  The majority grouped under 55. ANSWER) Your email referring to Google adjusting your age and location does not pertain to the facebook marketing.  We have reviewed this prior.BHC) I have already discussed moving my website and was told by your colleague in writing that I would essentially leave each page behind, even the photos that I bought from photo aggregators for the site.  ANSWER) Not correct.  If you have this email, I would like to know who sent it, so we can make corrections.  Your pictures and content are yours.  You may use any website tool you likeBHC) Your statements in reference to website disposition and Facebook page disposition are all clouded with per our Terms and Conditions.  ANSWER) We have been specific with our reports that are attached here to show you the results.Paul, I'm glad we had the opportunity to talk on the phone.  We have been diligent in our reporting to you and these reports have been attached on this complaint.  The desired settlement of a refund is respectfully denied.  We will help you move to the new company and I'm glad you have found a company you are comfortable with.  I will call you April 5th around 9 Am CST, as we discussed.Andy [redacted].Andy [redacted] Virtual Vision Computing Co. 1013 N 3rd Ave Wausau WI 54401 888 638 5044 715 675 9194 715 551 3994 cell 715 675 0469 fax [redacted] On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Andy [redacted] <[redacted]> wrote:Hello Paul and BradPaul, Thank you for taking my call today.Based on our call:We have agreed to continue the Budget Hearing service with Virtual Vision for April 2016;  You said you would pay for service in April. Thank you.We have set an appointment for a phone call on April 5th 2016 at 9 am, to help you with items you need to move your marketing.I have that date set in my calendar and I will call you Tuesday the 5th.I will respond to your additional comment in the Revdex.com complaint yet today.Thank youAndy [redacted] Virtual Vision Computing Co. 1013 N 3rd Ave Wausau WI 54401 888 638 5044 715 675 9194 715 551 3994 cell 715 675 0469 fax [redacted] Paul, I understand you disagree with the response from Virtual Vision. I will respond to the additional claims you have in your complaint.The BHC below = Budget Hearing Centers, which indicates a statement made by Paul with Budget Hearing Centers.Our response follows with ANSWER)BHC) Budget Hearing Centers spent close to $3,000 with Virtual Vision during 2015.  ANSWER) Your total payments for a build of a website and your marketing with Virtual vision was 2,609.75BHC) Not only was the Facebook advertising geared to the wrong demographics but also the Website advertising inept.   ANSWER) The demographics for the Facebook marketing were and are correct.  See attached reports for the correct demographics that were run for Facebook. budgethearing-FB-PPC-Report.jpg; ANSWER) Regarding the "Website advertising inept",  Your google analytic reports for 2015 show:2,594 individual users; 91.2% are new; and 4,338 page views;   We have provided you the reporting.  I wish there was more we could do for you.BHC) Received only one hit during their entire marketing campaign period.  That is not only a failure but indicates ineptitude.  I also have advertising evidence that indicates to the contrary of what you are saying.  ANSWER) Please see the attached report showing 8 referrals from Facebook, not 1 as you stated.  budgethearing-FB-clicks.jpgBHC) Your Facebook person may have corrected the demographics late in the game but it was incorrect for a majority of time.  ANSWER) Incorrect. The Facebook marketing was entered correctly the whole time and the proof is in the facebook reporting.  The FB PPC marketing was agreed to Oct 20th 2015, order entered Oct 23rd 2015;  Report is from Sept 2015 to March 2016; Please see the attached report for Facebook PPC which shows the demographics with "no user under the age of 45"; budgethearing-FB-PPC-Report.jpgBHC)In addition I received emails from Google asking me if I wanted to expand my age coverage that it was currently set for, along with showing percentage responses by age.  The majority grouped under 55. ANSWER) Your email referring to Google adjusting your age and location does not pertain to the facebook marketing.  We have reviewed this prior.BHC) I have already discussed moving my website and was told by your colleague in writing that I would essentially leave each page behind, even the photos that I bought from photo aggregators for the site.  ANSWER) Not correct.  If you have this email, I would like to know who sent it, so we can make corrections.  Your pictures and content are yours.  You may use any website tool you likeBHC) Your statements in reference to website disposition and Facebook page disposition are all clouded with per our Terms and Conditions.  ANSWER) We have been specific with our reports that are attached here to show you the results.Paul, I'm glad we had the opportunity to talk on the phone.  We have been diligent in our reporting to you and these reports have been attached on this complaint.  The desired settlement of a refund is respectfully denied.  We will help you move to the new company and I'm glad you have found a company you are comfortable with.  I will call you April 5th around 9 Am CST, as we discussed.Andy [redacted].Andy [redacted] Virtual Vision Computing Co. 1013 N 3rd Ave Wausau WI 54401 888 638 5044 715 675 9194 715 551 3994 cell 715 675 0469 fax [redacted] On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Andy [redacted] <[redacted]> wrote:Hello Paul and BradPaul, Thank you for taking my call today.Based on our call:We have agreed to continue the Budget Hearing service with Virtual Vision for April 2016;  You said you would pay for service in April. Thank you.We have set an appointment for a phone call on April 5th 2016 at 9 am, to help you with items you need to move your marketing.I have that date set in my calendar and I will call you Tuesday the 5th.I will respond to your additional comment in the Revdex.com complaint yet today.Thank youAndy [redacted] Virtual Vision Computing Co. 1013 N 3rd Ave Wausau WI 54401 888 638 5044 715 675 9194 715 551 3994 cell 715 675 0469 fax [redacted]

Review: Virtual Vision promised to build me a web page and right from the start I should have know there was going to be issues with them since they kept trying to take my money before the page was even finished and approved. they also kept trying to take a monthly fee for a website that wasn't even up and running yet. after 6 months of virtually no contacts from the new webpage, I asked to cancel my account and they kept billing me I called in June and still got billed, July and august also. I finally had to cancel my credit card to stop these crooks from billing me even after repeatedly telling them to stopDesired Settlement: I would like to get my money back for the last 3 months

Business

Response:

Hello [redacted] and [redacted],