Cedar Rustic Fence

Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2015/04/23) */
We installed a fence for Mr. [redacted] in July of last year. All of our fence installations come with a 3 year warranty on workmanship. Mr. [redacted] called this spring to notify us that a number of his post were heaving on his back...

fence line. We sent an installation crew out to reset the posts. At that time we reset 12 posts. He then called back and said another fence line had to be completely redone. An installation manager from Cedar Rustic met Mr. [redacted] at 7:30 am to inspect his fence. We then sent the crew back and reset another 10 posts.
When we reset a post, we will dig out one side of a post, reset the post and pour additional concrete in the hole. When we manufacture our fences, we drill a seep hole in the bottom of the post so that it grabs the cement and locks the post into the hole. The new cement will lock into the post. This an acceptable method to fix a heaving post.
Mr. [redacted] for some reason wants us to adhere to the ASTM 1999 standard. To be clear, we are the manufacturers of our vinyl fences. We buy vinyl materials from a couple of suppliers, but we ultimately manufacture and install all of our own vinyl fences. We make no claims nor do our vinyl suppliers that we will adhere to ASTM 1999 standards. ASTM is the American Society of Testing Materials. It is primarily used as standard for manufacturers to rely upon for manufacturing specs. Our vinyl supplier adheres to the color fading and impact resistant specs set by the ASTM. Those specs have nothing to do with the installation of a fence. There are a lot of standard building codes in the construction industry including IBC (International Building Code), IRC (International Residential Code), BOCA (Building Officials Code Administrators) and many more. We work in 120 different villages. Each village will adopt their own code, a standard code or adopt a standard code with modifications. To my knowledge no villages in Chicagoland or Northwest Indiana require or have adopted ASTM 1999. It is just not considered a standard for fence installation.
When installing a fence we use commonly acceptable installation practices and the local village code. The city of [redacted] does not have any restrictions or guidelines on hole depth or footing type. On a standard installation we dig a hole 36" deep. The diameter of the hole is typically 8" to 9" round.
Cedar Rustic has been in business for 88 years. As a company we install about 2500 fences a year which equates to about 65,000 posts. We warranty each one of those post for 3 years. That is 3 times the warranty required for new home construction. We understand the issue of post heaving and install our fences in a manner to try to minimize post heaving.
You cannot prevent all posts from heaving. Post heaving is caused by the existence of water freezing in the ground. Post tend to heave more when a fence is installed in a swale (low point in the yard), when down spouts are draining on posts, or when there is a high water table. Mr. [redacted] may have high water table in his yard. If that is the case, a 10" round hole 36" deep may not prevent his post from heaving. If there are water issues in his yard, taking the fence down and reinstalling his fence could be a waste of time and money.
I feel the repairs that we did should be sufficient. If they are not, we will work to resolve them. When we have posts that chronically heave, we will dig out the post and drive a steel rod through bottom of the post and into the ground locking the footing into the ground.
Mr. [redacted] mention in his complaint $800 for a sprinkler line. We have not had any discussions with him about a sprinkler. When we install a fence, we are installing in the location that is dictated by our customer. We cannot be responsible for any underground sprinkler system that may be in the way of the fence. Our contract clearly states, "under no circumstances is Cedar Rustic responsible for damages to private utilities (including sprinklers, drain tiles..."
Mr. [redacted] had an issue with his fence. We came out to his house on three occasions. Once to inspect the fence and twice to reset 22 posts. His fence is now fixed. Mr. [redacted] still has 2-1/2 years on his warranty for his fence. If his post heave again or he has any other issues with the workmanship on his fence, we will fix it under the terms of the warranty. If the same posts heave, we will use an alternate method to try to prevent his post from heaving again.
We are not going to take his fence down and reinstall his fence for no reason. We are also not going to give him $4400.00. Those are both unreasonable request.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2015/04/23) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
The installation they did does not meet industry standard. The problem with the installation is that there is no concrete in holes. Why does CR not understand this?
I have had a structural engineer review the fix they did on the posts that heaved and he stated that it is an unacceptable fix.
He also stated to me that the concrete mix they poured is totally unacceptable. I will send CR the report next week.
I have had two fence contractors look this mess, and they stated that the problem is that there is no concrete in the hole; it's just gravel and sand.
The AFA which CR are members of states that ASTM 1999 governs the installation of PVC fencing.
To be honest I do not even care about the ASTM standard. The fence was not installed per the industry standard in this area. Contractors in this area use a 10" diameter hole to depth of 36" filled with CONCRETE. The key here is that the hole is filled with CONCRETE.
If the proper concrete mix was poured I would not have these problems.
With regards to sprinkler system. CR is correct in saying that sprinkler repairs are my responsibility,but I paid to have them corrected once. If larger holes are now required, and my sprinkler system is damaged, this is on CR.
Each fence contractor I talked to tells me the same thing-some posts will heave, but not over 1/3 of the posts.
With regards to a high water table, CR is grasping for a life line.
In conclusion, the problem is with the concrete mix they used; it was so watered down that it turned to sand and gravel over one winter. I sent [redacted], the owner, a picture. This is indicative of every single post. I sent [redacted] an email on Wednesday offering to meet with him, and choose not respond.
The fence needs to come down, proper diameter holes be drilled, and proper concrete mix installed.
I am not going allow CR to do a half [redacted] fix to get them through warranty, and them deal with the costs later.
I received a quote of $3,600 to fix the problem. This is excluding sprinkler repairs. This quote is for 10" diameter holes to a depth of 36".
I am not looking for money. Heck, they could send the check directly to the fence contractor.
This is heading to small claims court, if this does not get resolved.
I am having it fixed whether CR does or not. I have data to proved that it was a [redacted] job.
Final Business Response /* (4000, 9, 2015/04/24) */
There is cement in the holes. We intentionally sent a different crew to fix the posts. We did that to verify that the original crew set the post deep enough and used cement. He verified that they did both.
I put no credence in what other fence companies say about the installation. We don't use cement when we install a cedar fence for reasons beyond the scope of this discussion. We use a dry mix footing. Other fence companies claim that we do this for our vinyl and aluminum installation. That is not true.
This is the second time Mr. [redacted] has threaten legal action. At this point, I don't think we are going to resolve this issue. With pending legal action we are going to refrain from any future discussions here.

Initial Business Response /* (1000, 5, 2015/08/24) */
When we install a fence we are required by law to notify JULIE. JULIE then contacts the public utility companies and request they locate their underground facilities. When they locate their facilities they can be accurate within 3 feet (18" in...

either side of the locate). When we are in that tolerance zone of the locate, we are required by law to hand excavate. The only way to guarantee that we don't hit an underground utility line would be to install the fence outside the tolerance zone. That would be unacceptable to 95% of our customers, because they would be losing a large portion of their yard.
We hand excavate at our risk. In this case, we did hit a [redacted] line. [redacted] fixed and rerouted the line at our expense. There may also be a Comcast and [redacted] line in the same hole as the nicked[redacted] line. Nothing has happened to those lines; they are still functional.
Mrs. [redacted] is asking us to pull two fence posts and move the fence into here yard. One of the post, is the one that caused the [redacted] outage. She is afraid that her [redacted] will go out in the future. If we pull the existing post, there is a very good chance that we will break the [redacted] and [redacted] line. If we relocate the post, there is also a chance that we hit the newly run [redacted] line. We do not think that it is worth the risk because all of her utilities are currently functioning.
If Mrs. [redacted] wants us to move the fence, we will do so. She will have to take full responsibility for any further damage done to any of the underground utilities.
[redacted] should repair her grass. If they do not repair her grass, we will can sod the portion of her yard that was damaged.
Initial Consumer Rebuttal /* (3000, 7, 2015/08/24) */
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
As Cedar Rustic stated, JULIE came out prior to the installation of the fence. The installation was still wrong. The post was still placed on the wiring. This is not my fault, and I should not have to be responsible for their error. I should not have to pay for their error by taking full responsibility to place the post in the correct location. This was part of their initial responsibility. They have a lifetime warranty that should be honored. They are responsible for the mistakes of the labor team which they send out to install fencing. I placed this task in their hands, and I should not have to bare the risk or liability for placing the post and panels in the right location.
Replacing the grass is also the responsibility of Cedar Rustic. If the post was not placed in the incorrect location to begin with, then this would not be an issue. I should not have to go to [redacted] for a problem which lies with Cedar Rustic. The cost of moving the wiring lies with them due to their team's error.
Final Business Response /* (1000, 12, 2015/09/29) */
If we were to pull the requested post we would probably break the [redacted] line. If we were to relocate the post, their is a good probability of us breaking the new [redacted] line. The fence is in the location that is specified on the contract. Both her cable and electric now work. We do not feel moving the post is worth the risk of injury or cost of damaging the cables.
Final Consumer Response /* (3000, 19, 2015/10/28) */
This is still an issue for me. The idea that Cedar Rustic states that all of my utilities are working without actually residing in my home is an inappropriate statement.
It is true that the fence was placed based on the contract. However, we still have to go back to the original issue. Cedar Rustic asked JULIE to come out and mark all areas to confirm that the placement was correct on the contract. After JULIE noted that the location was a place that held wiring for utilities, the installation was still placed on top of the wiring without the necessary adjustments to the contract placement and without speaking with me about the consequences of the placement. This has resulted in [redacted] having to move the wiring and other utilities suffering as well.
It is hard to believe that Cedar Rustic will not honor their contract or acknowledge their mistake and move the wiring without feeling that they may place the new post on top of additional wiring. This makes me think that they are not competent in their installation team and have issues with following the direction of JULIE.
It is not my desire to take on the responsibility of any further issues with the placement of this fencing, and I feel that Cedar Rustic should be accountable for the mistake and work to honor the warranty and contract by moving the fencing to avoid any future issues.